How to Write Thrilling Stories (Gillian Flynn Interview)

Gileian Flynn is the author of one of my favorite books of all time, Gone Girl. Coming to the episode, I was like, who am I going to get here? Who is the kind of person who could write such a crazy bloody mystery? And she ended up being super fun, light, down to earth, and we spent the whole time talking about what she loves, which is books and the craft of writing, how to write a great novel. And after Gone Girl became a hit, she decided, hey, let's turn this into a movie. So, she sits down, writes the screenplay, teams up with David Fincher, and that movie ended up getting nominated for an Oscar. So, I said, "Hey, you got to tell me what you learned from Fincher, why you write like a method actor, how you think through plot, character, the beginning of a novel." And she said, "I'll tell you all that, but also what it's like once you get to know your character so deeply that you're at the supermarket or

something and all of a sudden it's like they're there with you. You can actually hear them talking to you." And that's when I know that I have the character down. So, here's my conversation, my awesome conversation with Gillian Flynn.

The place I want to start is in your stories, there's like this sense of impending doom where it's like this beat or like this base that sort of keeps building. You know that the base is going to drop. You know that the hammer is going to fall and it just sort of builds and builds. Is that something you do consciously? What an interesting question. I I no. The answer is no. Um I am never consciously ever to be honest.

It'd make me sound cooler if I said I did it on purpose, but I'm never consciously building suspense. I feel like I'm building a story and I'm trying to put like crisis upon tension upon unsettling upon, you know, weird twists and turns and and and so have it be this kind of unraveling that's actually heading you toward awfulness. Um, and and to have that sense I like this sensation of knowing you're being pulled toward the dark corner or the closet and with a rope around your waist and not being entirely able to control it, but it's pulling you very slowly to mess with you, like, like the creature in the closet is enjoying your fear.

>> So, what's going on? So, there's like this dark corner, the creature in the closet, and you're thinking we got to get there slowly or something. >> Yeah. I'm like, what's the most painful, painful, like anxiety, making thing to do is to, to make it go, dish it out in little pieces, and, and you know, that includes little twists and turns and, um, crazies, and you know. But for instance, with Gone Girl, it's, you know, okay, here's Nick, okay, here's Nick's wife is gone, now he's flubbing the interview with the cops and looking bad, and now he's taking a selfie and flirting, accidentally flirting with someone with a hot casserole to bring them. You know, it's like um just like that sensation of people getting in their own way and so and contributing to the problem is what I enjoy to have my characters suffer. You know, in Sharp Objects, Camille is a tortured character. You know, she's self harm. She's, you know, she's back

in a bad place. And so she's making these decisions and then trying to undo them as she's trying to solve the mystery. And I so I like putting those little tweaks of a person's own character in the way because I always feel like, you know, there's a reason the phrase is like, you know, he's worse enemy. Like there's a reason there's that phrase. There's a million times a day where I'm like, Gillian, why do you always do that? You know, and it's like you're gonna do this someday and you're gonna end up, you know, in prison because [laughter] [gasps] why can't you stop killing? And I say that all the time to myself.

>> Wait, so this is good. So is that something that you're conscious of? Like say that you have a character, these are the ways that they're killing themselves. And then do you almost smash the plot against those character traits in order to bring it to life? >> If you ever want to edit me, yes, I would I would love your help because you're really like helping me figure out how I'm doing things. But yeah, that I think that is what I enjoy doing is like I you know I always say my my thrillers are character based.

They're character based. They're character based. And that is the one thing I insist on is like throw me in whatever genre you want. Like if you want to call me a mystery writer or a thriller writer or I just do this or I just do that, that's fine. As long as you acknowledge that I'm character driven and that I'm not, you know, it wasn't like the twist of Gone Girl was the reason I wrote Gone Girl. Truly was not. And it's the idea of building a character. And you know, a writer like Scott Smith does it better than anyone in the world. You know, if anyone wants to read the the ruins or um A Simple Plan, I cannot recommend it more. Those are I mean, Scott's one of my favorite writers and and that's what he is really great at is is everything that happens is the characters kind of fault, but it's them just being themselves and as in certain situations, how different people affect each each other. and this crazy myasma

that that is that we're all trying to make our way through. But you know, you meet bad people along the way. You do bad things and that's what interests me.

>> In what ways? So I asked there, in what ways do the characters kind of smash against the plot? >> In what ways do the characters smash against the world that they're in? So you have Gone Girl, you're in the Midwest, you're in Missouri, uh they've moved from New York. Like what is the role of setting in the books that you're writing? Um, setting's big for me. Um, so far I've always, all three of my books have been either Missouri or Kansas. Um, I started Missouri.

>> The true local. Look at this everybody. >> For real. [laughter] Missouri. >> Um, I started wring Gong Girl. I wanted to set in Chicago because I was like interested in doing kind of a big city sort of vibe. And I live here. I've lived here for 20 years now. And um I it was originally set there and I wrote it, you know, I wrote a 100 pages in Chicago and it didn't make sense because Amy has to be Amy has to be pulled from her beloved New York to somewhere she doesn't want to be. And Chicago is too much. It has too much opportunity to remake yourself, which she sociopaths like to be able to do to be able to drop people, burn them, you know, sociopathic narcissists, like they have to have room to play.

And so I needed her dragged somewhere else and to feel resentful about it. So I thought, "Oh yeah, someone from New York would would not like to be around a bunch of Missouri." So I thought that that would be great. But I do love the Midwest. And I I think in part it's because you can play a writer can play a lot in the Midwest because it hasn't been overused. It's not, you know, it's not, you know, it's not southern noir, which is its own thing. It's not big city noir. are I mean New York is New York was for me was harder to write about in Gone Girl than any part of Missouri because New York has been written about and put in movies so much. Everyone thinks they know what New York is even if they've never lived there or never even been there but you have an idea of New York whereas in a way you don't have you know unless you've lived there you don't know what this little specific area of the country is. So,

I've kind of have grabbed onto it because you can make it more gothic and you can make it like I can, I feel like I have more, um, authoral vision or the ability to to create a fictionalized version and have people who call us the flyover state to go like, "Oh, maybe it is like that." I don't know. It like it freaks people out more because they've never seen it before. You know, it's like I would I when I moved to New York, when I was a young magazine journalist, I remember people would be like, "So, you're from Kansas City?" And they it was like I was this strange breed of of creature. And you know, I would just kind of mess with people like, "Well, let's get some pancakes and kill a puppy and um rob a liquor store because that's what we do in Missouri on Saturdays and be like,"I respect your culture."like [laughter] uh so I feel like you have this a license to play a lot with that setting.

What is your relationship with darkness and evil because it feels to me like you're just comfortable going there and going there and going there in a way that most people aren't. Most people just have an aversion. They get too close to the devil and they run the other way. like you just it seems like you're comfortable kind of by the darkness or something. >> I have always been and my theory is that there are two kinds of people in the world and there are people who like to flip over the rock and see what's under it and people who do not.

>> Not me. >> You not you? >> No way. >> Really? >> No way. That's what's crazy about why I love Gone Girl so much is I do not like flipping over the rock. But >> Right. Gone Girl is an investigation of the underside of it. >> Okay. Well, that's that surprises me. >> Do you like horror movies? >> Oh, love horror movies. >> See, I hate horror movies. >> Love horror movies. You You'll have to come to our annual Gorbecue uh if you're available on Halloween where we all dress up and watch horror movies all day and eat greasy, scary, bloody looking barbecue.

>> I will do it one time. Okay. >> You have a one time validation. >> We're going to be watching The Thing though and Alien. There's going to be a lot of things exploding out of people's bodies while you eat the ribs. That's the key. >> This is from your your dad like put horror movies on you. Is that right? Yeah. >> It's so true. I think I mean I really think that is part of the reason I have a very comfortable relationship with the dark and with scary stuff is because my dad was a film professor when I grow up and he was very um great about taking me to films. That was kind of our fatheraughter thing is to go to the movies together. Now that said, he also possibly looking back, as my mom would say, it may have aired uh in taking me to some some movies when I was way too young. Like I think I was seven when I saw Alien and I was absolutely terrified. I remember his him saying to me,"Well, Gilly, we're going

to go see Alien today."Now, Alien is really important because it has what's called a heroine, a female hero. It's important for you to see it. [laughter] And I think that's how he justified it to my mom afterwards after she after he handed me back to her. And I'm like, Rubino, save Jonesy. So, when you watch a horror movie, when you investigate The Unders Side of the Rock, do you enjoy it? Like, what is the emotion, the feeling that you're having?

>> I enjoy it. I mean, I'd prefer to say it's research or, you know, I look at a little bit and I pull back or whatever, but I'm just I'm very comfortable with that. I watch way too much true crime. I watch way too much scary stuff, but I, you know, I like romantic comedies, too, but I really like the scary stuff. Um, and I think it's it gives you a vocabulary to talk about anxiety in a way. So, which I think is is healthy for everyone. I have a theory that why true crime is so um the audience is so largely women and I I do think it's because women, you know, someone told me the other day um he was like men have sports as their fall back at a party and women now go to true crime. And I thought that's not wrong from from like I feel like the the more conversations I have as far as like pure hey how's it going? What are you doing?

What are you watching? I hear so much true crime stuff. And I do think it's because women can use that to sort of analyze relationships um danger talk about that fear of what it's like to move through the world as a woman. where you really always have to think and are taught to think unfortunately like you may walk out of your house and there's a possibility someone may want to take you and you'll never be seen again and you'll you know horrible things are going to happen. I mean we just learned that we you know you can't walk through a parking lot.

You're not allowed to. You're infantilized by force um by by necessity. And I think hopefully you go through your life and you're of you aren't overly scared and you still do all the all the stuff. I still walk through the parking lot. I just tell people I walk into the parking lot, you know, but you have to men don't understand that as much. You know, my husband's 6'2 guy. He he is always, you know, I'll be in a hotel like I just got here. It's 7 o'clock. All you do is want to do is take a run on the beach. Well, why don't you?

Well, of course I I can't. He's like, oh, right. Don't do that. what, you know, what are you thinking? Um, but you know, so I think it gives us a way to kind of like deal with that little anxiety that that always has to be with you. Like if I'm walking down the street, I have to be aware what's behind me. I have to keep an ear out. You're always keeping like one little piece out. And I think there's a relief and actually being able to talk about what if the worst thing does happen.

>> Tell me if you agree with this or disagree with this characterization. So, I was talking to a friend and I told her that you were coming on the show and she was like,"Oh man, I cannot wait for that."She understands feminine evil better than anyone I've ever >> Thanks to your friend. >> Agree, disagree. >> Agree. Agree. Yeah. I mean, I have thought a lot about female evil and in in a way it was because I just felt that we weren't properly represented. I was I felt it was being a little sexist to think that only men could be evil.

You know, I I do I always was kind of pushing back against that idea of like, well, you know, women are are too kind. A woman would never uh would never do this. They would never hurt someone. She would never. And it was like number one, that's just demonstrabably incorrect. If you look anywhere around in the world, um, and if you talk to any woman who knows other women, like, and the...I feel like it was really almost damaging to not be looking at that, because in a way it leaves women with only this idea of seeing in, uh, film or TV or or books female characters who are helpmates and female characters who are, you know, helping the husband out and, you know, bucking him up, keeping him in line, or her fighting him. And, you know, even if she's tough, she's the one who gets to, like, punch the bad guy in the face and, like, take that, you know? And and, uh, I just...I remember at the time when

I was writing Sharp Objects it was kind of the height of and I don't call this chicklet, but I do call chicklet the the the sort of shopping and shoes and how to get a man, those kind of books and chick chicklet was at its height, and everything was about...and it it was fun. I, you know, it wasn't like I was angry about it, but at the same time, I kept thinking, "Well, where are the stories about people that are more like me who don't care about shoes?"

And [laughter] I don't know if the camera caught that, but, um, you know, and and and have dark sides and have seen dark things and and, um, I just felt like it was important. So, it really was part of the reason I wrote Sharp Objects was to examine what violence looks like with women. You know, I felt like we know plenty of anti-heroes. You could name I mean, almost every book written by a man is practically an anti-hero. Like, some of the larger books when you break them down. And this uh and I thought, how many anti-heroins, as my dad would say, uh are there out there? And and and do we have can we think about and talk about? And so I really just wanted to write about that, and uh, that's kind of how the whole thing started. The, the male anti-hero is a trope, right? You know, like we all grow up you can name a zillion any cowboy movie, the anti-hero; any gangster movie, any, you know,

these, any, any of the deep literary fiction, you know, there's, there's often an anti-hero. And that was, you know readily, you can see that and name that and and point it and talk about it. Whereas women were just kind of left out. I mean, I was an English major in college and, um, then in journalism, and, um, I just kept thinking, "We're really missing something here as a whole, you know?"And not like I'm trying to make myself sound like I was out to do this important thing and change society, but in a way it, was it was like there's darkness here to be examined in a new and interesting way.

And I if if someone's not gonna say something about it, I you know, I'll raise my hand. >> And what tools does the form of the novel afford you to look at that clearly and to kind of rotate feminine evil as you're examining it from all these different layers and perspectives. a novel is wonderful to have that having having adapted um two of my novels and knowing what that how you have to change things to make it work on screen.

I can say the novel is a luxury because you can go inside someone's head. So, it allows you to really get in there and you can if you're um with one of the characters, you have more of an idea of how they became that the way they were. You know, I feel like if you kind of go back to anyone's childhood, you at least have more of an understanding of who they are and appreciation at least as opposed to just writing them off.

And that's kind of what I wanted to do with my character, the female character, is to be able to have it be more layered. I don't want to just write like she's a crazy evil troublemaker. That doesn't interest me. But it does interest me as like tortured, you know, uh, lashing out, hurt, angry, sad, and acting on in a way that you don't see women traditionally act. You know, we're supposed to nurture, find the best out of people.

And, you know, theoretically, we are, at least. you know, we're we're we're the ones who are supposed to smooth things over and comfort over here and tend over here and and you know, and and take our lumps and and put on our big girl pants and all that stuff. And, you know, I was like, well, I don't know about anyone else, but I act horribly a lot. So, I'm not a murderer, but if you take that 20 times more, you know, then then you can get there.

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So, what matters as you're thinking about a character? Is it, hey, they got to be lovable? They have to be likable. They have to be interesting. We have to be able to relate with them. So, even if they're evil, we need to see, hey, this is why they're acting evil. Like, what is the thing that matters as you're beginning to structure a character? I say nothing matters except are you interested in knowing more about this character. I absolutely I'm sure this will not surprise you reject any notion that my character should be likable.

[gasps] I I flat out reject that and I think I have proven that that is a correct assumption like that people just want a character who's interesting. They don't need a female character that is likable. And I remember when we were shopping around Sharp Objects, and I had re written my first book, and I had my first agent, and I was, like, ready for bidding war. And we got so many rejection letters that were that basically said men don't want to read books by women, and women don't want to read books by women who are writing about characters that are aspirational.

Women want to read, this is what I was told, women want to read about characters that they want to be like. And so they want to read about Bridget Jones because ultimately they, you know, everything turns out great for her and she's adorable, but they wouldn't want to read about Camille Preer because she's, you know, Camille Prier. And I just said, I just don't believe that that's correct. And I'm the one thing I'm proudest of with Gone Girl is that we prove that that I think once and for all that that is absolutely [ __ ] wrong. Yeah.

>> And what makes a character, hey, I want to read more about this person. >> I think it is trying to figure out what their motivation is. Like who is this person? Like if when I'm reading a character that I'm really gripped by, um it's because I I want to know what's driving them, you know? is because I don't understand them. I I I'm usually more interested in characters that are different from me in some way than in characters that are necessarily like me because I already I already know pe enough people like me. I don't necessarily need to read more about my own life. I mean, I a lot of people uh find a lot of comfort or interest or things to dig in with there. I I'm I'm usually tend to be more interested by characters that I feel like they have a secret or I'm trying to figure out what happened or that they're making strange choices.

>> Not all adding up here. >> Mhm. Exactly. Exactly. And that to me is always um what motivates me to learn more about a character, I think. >> Tell me about this photo. >> Oh. Oh my gosh. My diabolical little girl. [laughter] [screaming] Isn't that a great photo? Yep. I looked at that photo a lot while I was writing Sharp Objects. Yeah, I just I love it. It's called Livia for the Empress Lydia, who was notably diabolical. And I just love it cuz to me, this this little girl just looks like with the braids and everything.

She's got the little pore and she's everything a little girl should be. But there's something in her eyes and that purse of her lips that's just like I'm going to [ __ ] you up, [ __ ] [laughter]. And that's that was Emma. That was like and sharp objects like that was a lot of that idea of like just because women and girls present one way like that don't don't assume that that's all there is is ribbons and bows and and little dresses.

And so that photo like embodies that idea. >> Yeah. Yeah. For me it really does. I haven't seen that photo in a while actually. I'm glad to see it again. I I think I have a print of it somewhere. >> Yeah. It's haunting. >> It's haunting. Right. There's something about her eyes floating near the top of her or the pupils floating at the top near the top of her eyes that is really always gets me.

>> Beware. [laughter] So with you and your process, how much of it is oh the joy of typing at the computer versus this like dogged stubbornness of just keep going, keep going. It's both. It's both. I I the one thing I always say to people when they say they want to be writer, how do you how do you be a writer? I always say you have to write. Like you have to sit in the chair. It's going to be painful. You're going to have a lot of days where it's just miserable and you don't know what you're doing and you feel like you're writing 100 pages in the wrong direction. And you may be I mean I I I really truly wrote probably three Gone Girls a total of before I figured out what that was, what I was dealing with, what I what I was wanting to write. And so um lot I always think a lot of writing is stubbornness. A lot of getting published is just being a stubborn human. And it was like, I'm not going to let this book

beat me. Like, this book wants to beat me. And um and and just keeping at it. And I think some of it is the joy of writing. And there, you know, you would no one would do it unless there weren't the wonderful joys of it. And boy, when you're hitting a streak and you're, you know, there's nothing better. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's like, oh my god, so brilliant. It doesn't matter. So, you know, maybe you'll look at the next next day and be like, what have I done? What is this? But um that that's the fun of it and the there's there are certain you can tell when a writer is enjoying themselves. I think you to me I can always tell when a writer is like like doing our version of like pirouetses and dancing and you know floating through the air and a murmmoration of birds and like just like showing what we can do like um showing off and and enjoying the art of writing. I think Martin Amos when Martin Amos is cooking is like you can

feel him like kind of pounding his chest like like a gorilla. >> Yeah. Like this is amazing and you're like go. Um, you know, Joyce Carol, who's my favorite writer, does that a lot. Where, I mean, Fox that came out last year, it has half a chapter, maybe more, written from the point of view of a dog, which you would think would be silly, but in her hands and her brain, it becomes this where you're like,"I guess I know what it's like to be a dog now,"cuz she's so good. And you can tell she's she's just doing it cuz it's fun. Like she's just I mean, I don't know that that's for sure, but it feels like she's just doing it to see if she could, you know? And I like...I love it when writers are just like,"I just really want to write this."

And uh and, when you have enough of those scenes, then you have your book, you know you? When you're you know sometimes I just have days where I'm like,"You know, just write three good pages. It doesn't have to...it doesn't have to move the plot forward. It doesn't have to establish anything."You may not even keep it. Just sit down and write three good pages that make you happy just for the joy of writing. And that is my other tip for any writers is like you're going to have plenty of days, but if you can literally just every day say, I'm just going to write three pages that make me happy that are something to do with this book. And Cool Girl started out that way. I mean, Cool Girl was a writing exercise because I was stuck and I didn't know what the book was.

And so I was like, I'm just going to write one writing exercise. And it was back Nick and Amy had many iterations. At one point, Amy's parents ran a bespoke dating agency where they guaranteed that they would match couples up for life and and you would get married and that felt too on the nose. And then Nick and Amy were competing like magazine columnist for the man and the women's side. I was like, now I'm reading Aaron Sorcin script.

And then I I figured out I was but ultimately I was like,"Oh, Amy is going to write about women's issues for a women's magazine. I'm just going to write uh what an essay of hers and the magazine would sound like and would be like."So I wrote an essay called Don't Call Me the [ __ ] Cool a [ __ ] cool girl. And I wrote it in like full on screed in an a one afternoon just like pounding. I mean full on when I get writing I when I I know I know when I'm writing and really kicking it that uh cuz I start sweating and I start hatching. I get very physical about it.

I'm like a method writer sort of and I was like just angry screed [laughter] and then my uh my uh and my husband was very afraid of me that day. But um, then um, I finished, and my whole my whole um rule with myself is you can't use any writing exercises in a book, because then you're writing it for the book and you're not writing for the just the the reason you're originally writing it for, and you're going to be too self-conscious, and da da, and uh, and so I I had it in the book, then I took it out, had it in the book, put it back in the book. I really like it though. But she Oh, take it out. And I'm so glad so glad I kept it in the book given what I hear from people how that it mean meant something to them. It's badass. I mean, the the the language is so forceful.

The the the writing is cool. >> Yeah, it really was one afternoon. And I don't think I changed much that I I remember. And I I didn't I certainly, you know, it's not presented in the book as a separate thing. is just woven in and uh I was you mean I just went back and forth like is did I earn a spot here? Like all of a sudden she's just now randomly talking about a cool girl screed while she's you know >> that's kind of like your hit single from the album.

>> Yeah. [laughter] It's my single. >> You know what I mean? Like do you feel when you're making that like hey this could be the single or >> No. No. I I I I put in because I liked it. I at the in the end in the end of it, I was just like,"You know what? It's it's a page. You know, if people don't like it, then they'll they'll not think of it again because it's not taking up much space." But I was like,"But I really like it, so I'm going to put it in."

>> What are the other writing exercises you do? >> I do a lot of just write one scene with this particular character that's not going to be that's not set anywhere in the book. For instance, I have somewhere on my battered laptop, I've got like Nick's first grade class parent teacher conference written from the point of view of the teacher, meeting both of his parents, um, uh, when he was little and, and how she was perceiving the dad in particular and, um, and and what, so I could get an idea, and that that gave me insight into Nick's relationship with his dad, which ended up in the book. But that little piece was just about to write a little section about what that was like. I've got a um a whole I do have a pretty great chap chapter that's written from the point of view of Amy's boarding school roommate.

[laughter] I kind of someday I'll just release that as like a secret my little DVD extra track somewhere. Um so it's sort of like that and and sometimes it does help me figure things out in the book. Sometimes it just keeps me writing and makes me at least I mean a lot of writing is managing self-hatred and [laughter] and the loathing of not getting able to write the way you think you should have written that day. Um, and all the hopes of that day going like,"What, you know,what I, where is my life going? What did this day do?"But then, that sometimes really saves you, and you can be like,"Well, I am a writer. I wrote three good pages, and they won't be in the book, but I can write and here's proof."

And it did get me still, it kept me still thinking about the book. I think it's a great writer for me, a really good writer's block. >> solution >> fill in the blank for me when you get stuck as a writer do blank think >> when you get stuck as a writer, keep writing. I mean, I think that's really important to not let yourself don't throw away the book cuz you, you know, you've hit a writer's block. Don't start another book. That's that's one thing I had to learn. I spent most of my 20s learning. Don't hit a hard part of a book and just go,"Oh, maybe I should just write maybe it's not the right book. That's why."And because then you'll write 50 pages of another book and you'll go,"Oh, this is hard. Oh, maybe I'm not right. Maybe it's because I'm not writing the correct book.

And it's not that. It's because writing you're always going to hit a writer's block. In any job, you're going to hit something where you have a have to problem solve. And it's just another kind of problem solving. It's just writing. So it feels more personal in a

way. >> Can you walk me through how you think about revealing information in a mystery? So you know what the answer is going to be, then there's what's actually true, then there's what the reader knows. And how do you think about that sequential release of info? And then maybe even the art of misdirection. >> What helps in a mystery is not plotting it out for me because I'm figuring out who the killer is as I'm writing it. I don't go in knowing what the end's going to be. It would be >> I'm not I'm not necessarily advising that. I'm just saying that that's the way I do it is and that's the way I prefer writing. So I write that way and I get to the end and I'm like, "Huh, that person's a killer. Weird. I did not know that." And then I have to go back and drop in the correct clues to get us there. Like for instance, in Sharp Objects, and I I will not do a spoiler thing, but the person who is the murderer in Sharp

Objects, the book was not even a character in the first draft of Sharp Objects. Did not even exist. The murderer was someone different. Wow. That is in Sharp Objects. And I got to the end and people would be like, "Oh, I thought so and so did it." And I'm like, "Me, too. [laughter] I did too. It was crazy." And then it wasn't. Uh, so it it that part kind of does its work for you because that way you're not giving anything away because you've got nothing to give away. And so you're kind of chasing around, you know, you're you're you're chasing as the author down leads. So you're ch like maybe this interesting character is a killer. Could I can I can I work with this ball of clay over here? Like this is kind of fun. And so the reader is going along with me because I'm writing in that way of like walking in like I don't know who the killer is and and so in a way I don't have to undo anything. Now I do have to go back and

do a lot of rewriting and put all those guideposts in there and make sure they're not clear. But I'm very obsessive about making sure every mystery is earned. That is one thing I am obsessively good at is like well if you go back and you you look at everything you can trace I earned it like I'm I'm very big about like do have you earned this thing >> that you want to have you have to earn it and you know whether it's the suspense whether you know like um you have to build it up correctly and and so I think >> writing it through not knowing the ending and then going back and doing all the rewrites for me is really helpful because It can at first be a big creative gush and then it can be more strategic with the clues.

>> Who taught you about earned mysteries? Where'd you pick that up from? I think it was just because I love, love mysteries. And I read you know started with Agatha Christie when I was, you know, a kid. And I love her so much. And I remember even as a kid reading some mysteries, or watching some mysteries, and going like, "Well, I how would I have known that?" You know? And being just absolutely...always felt like a like customer who had been cheated, you know? Like...

>> feels cheap or something. >> It feels cheap. It feels absolutely cheap to me. I don't like those. I don't like to read those books like surprise, you know? It has to be. And again, it's cuz those books aren't probably aren't character-driven usually if they're if they're kind of doing a big Shazam out of nowhere. >> So then, are you writing the book and you're feeling the the the epiphany or something with us and then you're like, "That's it." And then you're kind of writing. Is that is that is that the feeling?

>> Yeah, you got it. It really is like that. It really is sort of like, >> oh [groaning] yeah, that's fun. Yeah. And you I mean for a writer you have to kind of like your own company and and have to be able to step away and be like is that cool? It's not cool. No, that's cool. You know, like like I think I got it. And that's a great moment when you feel like you've nailed something. Like you've ever figured out something

>> early in a book. How do you think about the pacing, the exposition, needing to set up the context? This is the characters. Cuz we live in a culture that's so fast now. M >> so much advice. Fast. Get to the point fast. Dive into the narrative. Start with the part where they're being they're being eaten by the bear. Right. Like right to it. Like the beginning of Casino Royale. >> Yeah. >> But Gone Girl is not really like that. I mean, it kind of is, but also I I don't know. It's a little bit slow.

>> No, it is. That that first part is um until the the big twist is very a very slow burn. And I, you know, to be honest with you, it it was Lightning in a Bottle. Um, I I'd be interested if it were released now if people would feel that first part was too slow. the way we've our society has gotten more quick moving and like you said, you know, I do TV and movies too and the note we get most often is like the audience is gonna turn it off if something doesn't happen in the first five minutes. You know, there's no such thing as slow burn anymore. And I completely disagree with that. I think that's wrong. I once again I completely think we're not giving humans enough credit. Um it's just it has to be a good slow burn. If you're doing a slow burn, you have to earn it. You have to keep people interested. And so with Gone Girl, I knew the twist was gonna happen.

That that part I for sure do. I didn't know how I was going to end, but I knew the twist was going to happen. And I knew for the twist to be fun. You have to torture people for a while. You have to like lead, you know, I I always say the first part is like the clicks of going up a roller coaster when you really don't want to be on the roller coaster. It's just like you're getting click click click. Yeah. And it's like going going and you know I had so many people tell me like I was pretty close to putting it down like because I was like where is this book going? I don't I'm sick of this relationship and then you know usually man who's had that part [laughter] sick of hearing about this couple and their all their love crap.

Um, but uh I don't know if people today, you know, I the Atlantic just did the whole a whole cover story called the end of reading or you know, it's like terrifying time to be a writer in a way. Um, but at the same time, I don't think that we're giving our readers and our audiences enough credit as far as um that they will do a slow burn as long as something's happening. I mean that and and like you said that's why Gone Girl is like Nick gets his own way. This happens. Oh no, this is getting piled out. Oh, he's got a girlfriend. You

know, >> when you were a TV critic, what was the thing that you would see in movies, you would see in TVs, you would see in stories that just piss you off the most? Like some stupid trope, some dumb cliche that just made you want to take your computer and smash it against the window? [laughter] Oh my goodness. I could think of a zillion, but the only thing that's coming to me right now that's is still remains my pet peeve and I that I still have to deal with sometimes is um characters into phones when they go hello when the hello hello and it's like it's someone's hung up.

It's like you're not building any suspense. You're just yelling into a phone. And uh and I don't like when we're seeing plans on screen like oh or or when it's not explained. I hate it when it's like, well, it's great to meet you. Let's get coffee. Good. I'll call you. And it's like, they haven't exchanged phone numbers. I get really like the OCD writer in me is like, but how will they do that? That hasn't like you're cheating. Like at the same time, no one wants to hear people exchange phone numbers and and contact information. But so, it really does come down to that that sort of thing of like making sure things are nailed down. I I mean as as wild as my books get I mean we have children with missing teeth and lakes and we've got you know Gone Girl which is bonkers I will be the first to admit goes to a bonkers place.

I think people go there with me cuz I nail things down the logistics and the realities of it so that it does feel real. So, if you went into my basement, my unfinished basement where I had a little creepy mother-in-law apartment when I was writing Gone Girl, it was and to call it an apartment, it was a room and I would just to remind myself to nail things down. I would always go just write something down on a sticky note, stick it on the wall. So you'd see these fluttering sticky notes everywhere of reminding myself of everything from like wait what I have a joke about Zema and Gone Girl.

He's like what? But was Zema still being made in 1997 or you know like well if Amy wrote in pin couldn't the FBI test what date that was written by? I fixed that. And it and it's funny because I don't necessarily like to do research. I'm not a person who talks to a zillion cops and does ride alongs and um does that because I don't consider myself someone who writes procedurals. Um so I'm not as interested in trying to nail down the co cop work. But that said, I don't want to get it wrong. So I always write my books and then I go back and talk to people and I'm like, could this happen? Not would it happen?

That is the most likely scenario, but could it possibly happen? And um and then hope I'm not too far off.

How do you think your writing is different because you did all that writing about film and TV? Like you stripped that out of the bio. How is your writing different? >> Well, I like would I even be a writer? Would I be an author? I don't know. Well, I think the 10 years of magazine work at a weekly magazine where I was, you know, Entertainment Weekly writing about film and TV and books and thinking about film and TV and books and what made something good, what made something not good. And particularly tricky when when I became the TV critic was trying to figure out why a TV show was a C. you know, we would grade on the A to F obviously and um it was it was never, you know, the A's were obvious really obvious and the D's were really obvious. It was like what what makes someone something a C, a C minus, a C+ like what what didn't quite happen? And that was where I felt like I did a lot of growing as

a writer, the writer of of what I do now is is doing all that thinking about, you know, oh, it's cuz they put a just a placeholder scene where there actually should have been a rewrite of that scene. >> Uh, and or that that type of thing. And and also the other thing that working for weekly taught me was that there's no muse that's going to come and save you. Like it's never good. That's not going to happen. You can't wait till you're in the mood to write. Like writing is a job. Writing is not I mean it is also I like to think an art and vocation but it's a job if you want it to exist. It is: you have to treat it like a job, and you know, so it definitely taught me, like, you may not be in the mood, but if you start, you may start getting that motion going. Or you may have a crummy day and you're going to have to go home and have dinner and work two hours tonight to get it correct. But that idea de it demystified writing in a

really helpful way for me.

>> that's a good turn of phrase can you tell me more about what tools from horror you brought into your books. >> For me, the horror that scared me most was not as much the um not the serial killer stuff like um I worship John Carpenter. Halloween is my least >> of scary. I'm I'm scared the least by Halloween of all his amazing movies. Okay. It was less that and it was more about um that idea that something bad and ominous is happening like it's it's alien to me. Alien is was again really instructive and or the thing like put put people in a place where they're they're trapped. And to me people trapped isn't an alien spaceship or you know it's not an Antarctic science station. It's it's themselves.

It's a small place. It's no matter where you go, there you are. And so trap people with themselves and people who are going to lead themselves to be even worse versions of themselves and you know then you then you can kind of start having a little fun.

>> Yeah. Talk to me about what's in a name. Like if I think of Gone Girl, I almost think of there's Carthage, which is a name that you see and you're like, "Whoop, that was a deliberate choice." You don't come to that by accident. And then there's like Nick Amy, which I'm like a little bit more nondescript. >> And then there's like the bar, which is deliberately bland. >> Yeah. >> So talk to me about all those. >> Well, you know, Carthage obviously is my ode to Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf?

Uh, >> so when we see that, are we like, do you expect the reader to be like, "Oh, I know what that's an ode to." That's just >> that's just me having fun. That's, you know, if someone knows that play um then it's I mean that play like there are a couple strange things that really influenced Gone Girl and certainly Who's afraid of Virginia Wolf was one of them. That incredibly toxic marriage of two people who are still can't stop playing [ __ ] games with each other. Oh my gosh. Gosh, if I could see the London Jillian Anderson version coming up. I'm trying to figure out how to how to get there. So, that that was like a fun little thing that I threw on. But, um, >> weirdly enough, there is a Carthage Carthage Mura in a different area of Missouri. So, I named it North Carthage. Yeah. And I get a lot of angry notes from people. There is no North Carthage. I'm like, I know.

I was trying to respect your being Carthage first people. Um, you throw in certain things for yourself as a writer on those lonely little days that just sort of amuse yourself to to make you laugh. Like there's a weird Desi's weird mom who didn't make the cut into the movie for space. Uh, but that I remember Nick, you know, she's kind of doing this weird slightly flirty, slightly predatory, slightly [ __ ] thing with Nick and [ __ ] with his mind. And then he gives her a hug. Goodbye. And he says that she smells.

She smells faintly vaginal. That was just me in a bad day. That was just me typing away like, "Ah, screw it. She probably smells like a vagina. I don't know." And it like, you know, it got me through that. You know, that's my other tip for writers like want to be writers is like amuse yourself along the way because it can be lonely sometimes. So, that was Carthage. Uh, and then Nick and Amy. I really cannot remember at all why I named her Amy. I just don't I don't remember how she I I wanted them to have normal names. I I like them. I just like the name Nick, too. I thought Nick uh I I surveyed a lot of people about Nick in particular. And I was like, what would a likable guy's name be? And I got the weirdest I was going to name him Ben originally, which would have been fun for Ben Affleck.

That would have been easy for him to go by, but >> but um too many people liked Benz uh in my in my various research and everyone had a reaction to Nick. It was everyone either knew Nick and he was the greatest guy and they loved him or was like you can't name him Nick like oh I knew the biggest checks. He was Nick and so I was like that's kind of fun. I'll do I'll call him Nick. So I did that. That is I think where Nick came from.

>> And then the bar like a nondescript name I guess actually instead of going there is there a generalizable principle that you have when thinking through names of places of people? >> I one of my very favorite things when I'm writing a book is to name my characters. So I could talk about this with you all day. I love names. I love naming. I like making up city names like Windgap um for in sharp objects like Kicki Kansas and dark places and for characters names. I always go on the social security baby names website which is the greatest website if you like names because you can cross reference by state, by time period, by decade uh the most popular names. It goes from one to a thousand of every year. And so I like to be year specific, you know, cuz like right now like my generation, I'm Gen X. Um, Jennifer's so many, you know, zillion Jennifers. If you saw a three-year-old named Jennifer today, you'd be like,

"What?" Um, a great name, but you know, you don't they're they're in the wild, I'm sure, somewhere, but [clears throat] very rare. And so I like going, okay, how is my character? All right, what might their name be? And if it's not one of these in the top thousand somewhere, then do I want to name them something really unusual? But like, so I I I do like that specificity. Talk to me about

finding your voice as a writer. Like in what ways is that like a worthy thing to think about? What ways is it total hoopla? But I want to layer on. You've said some really profound things about how laced with pop culture our world is. You know, like you think about, okay, somebody died. It's no longer this is my reaction. It's I'm so conscious of how the media has portrayed reactions to people close to them dying. Yeah.

>> That I feel like all of a sudden I jump into that character. >> Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I mean, we're modeled how to react to everything now. And you know, I wrote Gone Girl and Nick has a whole passage where he talks about can anything exper can anyone experience anything and actually be shocked or joy truly joyful in the way they would have been 100 years ago at seen an elephant or seeing something because we've seen everything there is to see everything >> and that was 12 years ago. I mean, and you know, that was before social med, you know, the real rise of social media, the real, you know, I I had the luck of writing Gone Girl before any of that.

So, I didn't have to even deal with that worried about like how would social media handle this? How would you know? Um, but it is it is trickier and trickier. I think Nick says in the book like it's harder on her to be an actual human anymore because you're constantly examining yourself or at least I am. It sounds like you were similarly um of like wait did I am I reacting the way I'm actually I'm actually reacting or am I doing the thing I'm supposed to? I mean, I remember when I was writing it, I'd gotten engaged, which was really We'll examine that later. Why [laughter] >> here honey?

>> Happy anniversary. I remember we were at a a little gathering [laughter] and someone was passing around little gifts for the bride or something, and I opened the one that was really lovely, and I did this thing that I have never done before since, which was to go like, and as if I was about to start crying, like, "Oh my gosh, thank you guys." And I caught myself doing I'm like, "I'm only doing this because you always see women start to cry and go like and like dab napkins the way," and like, I don't cry that way, but Alison, and I was doing I was being performative. And now I think, um, I don't I mean, I worry about my my sweet children and keeping them their weird, adorable, kooky, darknatured selves and not having them just be regurgitating reactions that they've seen on social media or something. I think it's really important >> in Gone Girl. I think you went a step further where you said,

"I've literally seen it all." And the worst thing, the thing that makes you want to blow my brains out is the secondhand experience is always better. The image is crisper. The view is keener. The camera angle and the soundtrack manipulate my emotions in a way that reality can't anymore. I mean, and I think that's why we're all, you know, addicted to social media and YouTube and and all the things is it it often is better. I mean, I, you know, in the, in the same way you paste over a memory and if it was good, it sort of gets dreamier and dreamier and you forget the, you know, the lost luggage of the trip, or whatever it was that was the bummer, and you have that kind of memory that you've polished. I think that even better is seeing someone else's version of your memory that has now been, you know, sound corrected and, you know, visually framed and and made perfect. And you know, we I I think we're in a way

we're risking losing our imaginations because we have such an influx, such a fire hose of content that is coming in our eyeballs at any given second. And you know, it was like, you know the, the trend when people were watching this one drove drove me crazy when people, the trend when people were recording the kids or someone who hadn't seen Star Wars finding out "Luke, I am your father." For a while, at least in the parent group, was like a big thing of, like, recording while someone saw that, and then you started seeing people that were clearly faking being surprised, right?

>> At the "I am your father" moment, and then you had people talking about whether or not they were surprised, and you were, and we were react our stuff, and it's this sort of like [laughter], um, where you know, where is the real reality uh? Once you've, you know, passed the seven-year-old kid who actually was having his own reaction, but you made it a weird thing too by recording it. Like, he knew something was he he knew he was supposed to have a reaction because you were recording it so, you you're there; you're now influencing that too. It just is this kind of like nesting dolls of of madness to me.

>> How is writing a book different from writing a movie? Like what does a movie afford you that a book doesn't? >> I I felt really and still do so lucky to have gotten to adapt Gone Girl to be able to have those two exact >> also work with David Fincher. That is so cool. >> It's okay. We were talking about like liking a movie enough to see it multiple times. I got to tell him the story when I met him. >> Well, yeah. I mean, I went to Gone Girl.

I remember I saw it with my friend Garrett in Pennsylvania and I went one night and then I went the next night and then I read the book in like 3 days and I was just like, "Holy cow." It was like a shock to my sister. It was like an electrical jolt. It's been like 12 years and I still feel it viscerally. Just makes me so happy. Thank you. >> God, that story is [ __ ] awesome. And I I do not swear a lot, but that story is worthy of the f-word. [laughter] [gasps] >> Well, mine was seven cuz I got to tell Fincher when I met him, I had moved to LA right out of college, right out of KU, and I decided to take myself to the movies because that's what I do. And um I saw Seven in the theaters.

I went out to get in my car and I saw the next showing was coming up and I'm like I think I'm just going to go back in and watch that. So then to get to have David Fincher be directing Gone Girl was unbelievable. Like fill this like full circle of like coming back to LA. I wanted to go back to my little 22-year-old scared to self and be like it's going to turn out okay. >> You know this movie you're seeing. >> Uh but it was that part was really really neat. So to get to have adventure to get to write both sides and really I do feel like that way I can actually really speak to what what makes one easier does one thing better than the other. And certainly with Gone Girl the trickiest part was Gone Girl so internalized >> so internalized >> so much character size and we had actually shopped it all around town trying to thought it'd be a movie. It was a number one book for weeks and weeks and weeks. No one wanted it. No

one wanted to buy it. No one wanted to be my agent. No one wanted to buy it because they thought it was not adaptable. Everyone kept telling us it was not adaptable. And it was on it was number one on the bestseller list, I think, for 10 weeks by the time it anyone wanted it. It was they just really that everyone was just like, "No, it's not. You can't do it." >> They have a point. They were ultimately wrong, but I I I totally see it. Uh, I that one I do begrudge the publishing industry saying men don't read women's books because that's a lie that women don't read aspirational non-aspirational women. I do not blame the whole the idea that it would be hard to adapt. Um, but uh I felt like there was enough there and there was enough plot there.

You got a massive amount of plot. I mean that's a piece of clockwork. Something's something's always moving and happening. So, I knew I had that, and I knew I had some interesting characters, and I was kind of like, "I think this is kind I do think this can happen." And, you know, thankfully Finchure read the my first script and was like willing to work with me, and he was the greatest collaborator a person could ever have for.

>> What'you learn from him? >> Oh god, like everything I know about screenwriting. I mean truly I cannot um just I'm so grateful we have the same kind of dark sense of humor. We liked the same things about the book which isn't necessarily you would think would be a given but it really I've learned is not a given. Some some directors come in and it's like it's because something's going to be a hit or they can, you know, cast a big name or, you know, they could see it like it's a a commodity. Whereas he came in like actually really knowing and liking the book. And in fact, the first thing he said to me was um because I made it exactly 120 pages.

Everyone says, you know, that's 120 pages. It's usually a page a minute. Yeah. The script. Sorry. >> Um it's usually a page a minute. So was everyone said, "Don't go over 120 pages. That's a two-hour movie. If you go any longer, they're going to think that you're this darling novelist who can't kill her babies." And so I was like, "Okay." And I didn't. And the first thing David was like, "Let's put more of the book back in here." Like, "Let's see as much."

>> It's like a two and a half hour movie. Yeah. [laughter] >> It's still not a short movie. >> Yeah. >> He works harder than any I know. He doesn't phone anything in. He even down to an insert shot, you know, he doesn't he doesn't mess around and I appreciated that. He's always willing to go back and see like is there more to be gotten out of this? And he's always like I >> When, at least with my experience and I don't want to speak for his experience with anyone necessarily but I felt like he was a great editor, like the way a a a book off a a bookw writer has a good editor, that he performed that function for me. And and, to me, that's asking, asking the writer questions, pushing a little bit, um, why is this happening here? And if you can't articulate why something's happening, then it probably shouldn't be there. And that that I mean, I learned that from him because he was really collaborative and willing to

work with me and and I would get partway through articulating why I liked a scene or a moment or whatever. And sometimes by forcing me to articulate it made me hone it better. It's like, "Oh, right. That's what I'm trying to do." Like he made me have to say it out loud and explain it. And now I've got a better awareness and it's gonna be a better scene because of it. Or do we get partway through and be like scrap it?

>> Fine. [laughter] Fine. It goes fine.

>> And what makes for a good narrator? I feel like you've had a lot of fun with narration over the years. >> I love narrators. I love I'm a very strong first person. In my second book, Dark Places, it was told by three different characters. one is the primary narrator in first person and then the two are in pass and they're in uh not uh first person. Uh and I I enjoy first person just because I think I'm a voicy author. I I like voice. That's what attracts me to the writers that I read is a big voice and I think >> how they speak >> like their voice.

>> Yeah. Like the writer's voice. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And and so you can, you know, for me, you know, it goes back to like, look at me having fun. >> The old gorilla. >> Yeah. Yeah. Like this is so much fun. You can really like show off, I guess, in a way. Uh I mean, I think you can in a big loud uh look at me sort of way. But so many writers try to do that showing off the gorilla look at me and it sounds so writerly like it makes me want to puke.

Uh, so like what are they doing wrong that the writers you like are doing right? >> I wonder if it's a self-consciousness and intention question. You know, I think if you're out to say, "I'm going to write this in a really big voice." You're probably not going to write it in a authentic really big voice. You're you're faking it. It's sort of like I always tell people not to chase the trends when they're trying to get published. you know, like don't write about vampires just cuz Twilight was huge, you know, like at the time, you know, you can't uh chase things or try to imitate. And so I think if people are trying to do this big daring voice, they're probably getting in their own way um because they they're being self-conscious about it.

Like you you have to find the voice and then the that voice is big. You can't just say, "I will write this in a deliberately loud, ostentatious, uh, way." Is that something you consciously tried to cultivate? And if so, is that something that you're conscious of, like you have the voice defined? Or is it like, "Ah, I feel it a little bit more intuitively," or is it like, "I don't really think about it, but it just comes out"? There's a certain organic nature to it, as far as it sometimes just comes out for sure as you're trying to figure out a character and what they might sound like, what they might think like. And the more you can get in that brain, I think the voicier it will be. So, I think some of it again is like earning the voice. The more time you spend with that character, the bigger their voice is because it's bigger in in your head. I mean, I knew I I knew I had Amy when I was standing in the supermarket

line one day and this woman was in front of me in a 10 item line with like 22 items or whatever. And I was like, "Oh, Amy would not like this." as if she were really my friend. I mean, like I was as if I were going to call her and be like, [ __ ] there's this lady in front of me. You will not believe this." Uh, and I the same with Camille and Sharp Objects. I knew I'd had Camille figured out when I was thinking about Camille was like I can't I mean I remember I was I was had a day job. I was so I was working at Entertainment Weekly and I was like hanging out like filming Jackass the movie with the Jackass guys. is I'm in New Zealand with the Hobbit.

>> You worked on the Jackass movie? >> Oh, yes. >> What? [laughter] >> We should find my article that I wrote on it because I think it was a cover story and it starts out with Pontius was I don't know why I'm lowering my voice because but Pontius was swinging his Yeah, exactly. Don't listen to this part, kids. Swinging his pis around in front of me. He had this trick that they'd be like, "Ponies, do the helicopter. Do the helicopter." So, I'm getting the helicopter the getting helicoptered um on Jack as the movie and then I'm like going back to write this really dark scene about like death and murder and children missing teeth and everything. I being close my eyes and I still have the image of Pontius's penis going round and round. So, it was a weird time, but I remember I got really busy with all the silliness.

But I would think about Camille. I would think about Camille. I would think about what I would tell her almost of different things and I would still even while all that madness was going on I was writing sharp objects because I felt I just had her I felt like I owed her almost and so her voice I think comes from that. So it's you have to be you have to be willing to give yourself over. I mean I'm making it sound almost mystical magical. It's not, but like you know it is sort of like method acting in a way I think at least for me is like like really putting that person in my skin.

>> Tell me about this with the beginning of a book. How much do you think about those first words, those first sentences, those first paragraphs like creating the mood, creating the key that the book is going to be in? At first, I don't think about it much because I it can be really intimidating to say like I am going to write the first sentence of my book. So I I never even think of it that way. I always picture myself that I'm diving in a few paragraphs along.

But uh and then I often go back and I put the first paragraph on once I'm completely done with the book and sort of like go in that way like what do I want the theme to be with SH Barbers? I didn't. My husband like absolutely hates the person. So sharp object he [laughter] is uh I think it was my sweater was new stinging red and ugly but let me see if I Yep. That's the one. >> That's the one. >> I got it. Um that uh you know he's like it just doesn't do the book justice. Like he's like all your other first um first sentences are like so good. He's like but I don't know. You should have gone back and and fixed uh fixed sharp objects, but uh that was before I knew him. So uh [laughter] the with Gone Girl, I like the person as a Gone Girl.

>> When I think of my wife, I always think of her head, the shape of it to begin with. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I think that sets off a if once you know who Nick is, you know what direction that's coming from the it gives this mildly uneasy thing of what why is this man thinking at the back of his wife's head? >> Mhm. So, what's the role of the the the five questions where he says, "What are you thinking, Amy? The question I've asked most during our marriage, if not out loud, if not to the person who could answer. I suppose those questions stormcloud over every marriage.

What are you thinking? How are you feeling? Who are you? What have we done to each other? What will we do? >> I think those are the questions of the book. I think it starts answering those as you go. And it to me that that establishes the mystery of the of the of what the book is. The the book's mystery is what happened to Amy, but it's also what happened to their marriage. And I think again having written it at that time when I was a uh to be or recently married uh woman, I was asking those questions a lot. You know, I was sort of like, okay, what does it mean to be joined with someone for life? And and that they they do change you and you change them and you know, if if if it's if it's toxic, uh then you're each getting poison back and forth.

>> Yeah.

What makes mysteries such a good way to do character study? >> Oh man, best way such a great way to do character study for someone who doesn't know how to write a novel. Um, I tried for so long to write Sharp Objects and that was I wanted to write about female violence and generational and cyclally and what that looked like. And I but I didn't know how to do it. And so basically it would be a series of conversations where people would be like,"What's up with women and violence?"And the other character would be like,"It's horrible. We're really violent."As it turns out, people don't think we are. And then the other I mean it was like awful. It was awful. And I then I would be like,"This isn't working."and I moved them into another room and they would just keep talking about at one point there was a bird that was trapped in the character's house and they were attacking the bird. I mean it's just it

was going nowhere and I read my friend Dennis Lehi wasn't my friend at the time but but Dennis Lee's Mystic River I read it through the night is one of the very few few books I literally have can say I've read in one sitting. I just read it all the way through the night. came in to work the next morning exhausted but like was kind of exhilarated because I'm like I got it. I figured it out. Like Dennis Leane has shown me the way. Um as you do Dennis. Um a mystery can give me the engine >> and the discipline to move the story along. So I can talk about all the themes I want to talk about, but if I attach them all to the engine of mystery, I have to keep it moving. And so I can be then I can make it a larger thematic sort of thing and not so as obvious engine discipline. Why those words?

>> Because I think that they they force you to have a plot. You know I my my stuff doesn't necessarily come with it. My thoughts don't come with this plot. I think of the character first and then I kind of making up the plot to go along with the character. I'm doing sort of creating the mystery as I'm um figuring out the character. So, it kind of they they blend together that way, but it it it forces you to keep moving because the next clue has to happen.

>> You have your own imprint called Gillian Flynn books. And the lines on the site at the top, they say stories with teeth, biting, voice driven, and thrilling. And then at the bottom, it says designed to start conversations and leave you reeling. Why' you choose those words? >> Because the most important thing to me when someone reads my book is not that they like it. I really it doesn't bother me if if you don't like my book. And I that may come from having been a critic for a long time and just I really believe if you could dish it out, you should be able to take it. And um if you know reading my own reviews, I'll be like sometimes I'm like that's not fair, that's incorrect. Oh, that one. That's right. You're right.

You caught me. Like that part sucked. Yes, you're correct, critic. So, I can kind of app the ability to kind of like distance myself and appreciate it. And so, people have come up to me like at readings and like slammed the book down like I hated this book. Like, I'm only here because my book club made me calm and like this is I hated this book. And I'm always like, tell me what do you hate about it? Let's get in there. because to me is great like is it's like cuz you thought about it >> right >> it didn't I don't I would much rather have that than have like um >> indifference >> I liked it >> no or like I liked it it's good >> And you don't think about it again; just goes water through your head. And it was a great experience, and you don't think about it ever again. I don't want that.

I want people to think about what I write, um, on some level. I want them to be entertained by it, and I want them to think, hopefully, and want to talk about it with someone, want to like debate it. I like conflict. I like being conflicted about a character, liking them and not liking them or know not knowing if they're good or or not and um being frustrated by them. All all those things because that's kind of closer to reality than >> Yeah.

>> And then with the input, you're trying to do that for other books. >> Yes. Yeah. So that's what I want to happen. >> Maybe I'm inferring that you think this is important to do not just for you books, but like we need more of that in >> more of that. Well, especially right now as all the consolidation is happening happening, as all the fear about the future of writing and the future of reading and the future, you know, of art is happening. Um, people are scared and they're they're wanting to only give contracts, you know, to writers who are already established for some reason, like already have another platform somewhere or very kind of easily consumable edible stuff that'll be like a quick hit. And you know, um the the weirder and quirkier and um outsidery and um the stuff with strange angles that I tend to like. Um you don't people aren't taking as much of risk on them. Like would would someone

have published Sharp Objects now? I don't know. I don't I don't know if they would have if they if they really were thinking that that belief were still in place that women would only read a aspirational would they have would they have taken even bother to take a risk

>> and now with the books that are given to you what pieces of feedback do you find yourself given the most >> to authors >> voice give me more voice >> give me more voice >> give me more voice >> so >> and I want to be very clear I am not their editor I like I read it and I give feedback but it's very general. Um, and then an editor actually does the hard work. So, I don't want to take any anything away from the wonderful editors uh at Xando that handle that. But, uh, yeah, I it's it's often like, trust your voice. Like, you didn't give me enough here. And they, you know, they'll often say like um, no, I thought I thought I was giving too much. And it's like, no, no, no, like let's revel in it. And I, you know, I like I like those I like those stories. I And it but it's usually it's usually already there. It's it to me it's the it's those books where you you do think about it, you do talk about

the characters or every book I published. Um, and I'm so proud of those books on the imprint are books that I would pick up and give to someone else with with saying like >> it's going to be a trip or saying like you're going to love this like the narrator is insane or you won't believe this or like it ends up at, you know, the craziest place you'll ever, you know, like that kind of thing. >> Not not like not I I'm sure you will like this because everyone likes us.

>> Yeah. And I want to get that book. I guess what I'm trying to work out is: let's say that I submitted something, you're like,"Dude, give me more voice, I want to hear more David, I want to hear more David."I guess my worry is then, in the next draft, I would almost become a caricature of myself be too much and also be insincere. >> yeah >> so like how do I get how do I crank up the volume dial on voice while maintaining the sincerity the authenticity almost the integrity of that >> yeah great question but I think really it's it's that it's having that confidence of knowing your your character or your place or whatever it is that is your jam that is making you write that book. I will probably want more of it because that's where the writer is usually their most confident. They're feeling their happiest. They're feeling their most themselves and authory and it's like live in that space.

>> I I can feel it. The voice is a little watery over here. I don't think you're as confident over here. Like get confident about it. Whatever it's take, whatever it takes for you to be confident in this section of your book that it belongs in your book, you need to justify it and give me more.

>> Right. Last question. You're invited to go teach at Northwestern, do a semester class on writing. >> Oh, please. >> Teaching people to do what you do. >> How do you how do you structure the curriculum? What do you try to get the students to understand? >> How would I structure it? I I think the way I would structure it is really a lot of in-class exercise writing. [clears throat] >> Um, and then sharing. And this is coming off the top of my head, but I do think that you learn writing is something you learn the best about by writing. And I really do think that I I spent I don't know if it would be called wasted time or uh unnecessary time, but on reading about how to write. Yeah. Right. like on >> Okay, I can't start yet because I need to, like, there's one more book I should probably read to figure out how to write. And the, the answer is there's no correct way to write. There these books

are, like Stephen King's On Writing and lamas Bird by Bird; these are amazing books that helped me be a writer and they're amazing, but then you do at some point have to write. And so I think that exercise of writing quickly and, and saying and literally being like,"Okay, here's the topic: it's a, a father and daughter, um, and she's 13 and she just got her period and there's no mom around,"joke. Write that scene >> and see what people come up with and that way they can figure out what their strong suits are. [laughter] Of course, it has female blood and awkwardness and darkness in it and the mom's dead and he kills her.

write the scene, you know, and I think that way every anyone who wants to write, everyone's a good writer has their strong points and their weak points. I always think my weakest point and my least favorite part is the plot and that way I have to trick myself. That's why I write mysteries because I like mysteries. So, I could trick myself into actually getting making a plot. >> Yeah. >> And you know, some people it's going to be the voice. Some people it's a sense of place or you know, internal dialogue or whatever it is. And but that way, each student could kind of slowly figure out, during the course of that class where their, where their weak spots are, where their other spots are, and see what other people come up with, and, you know, get jealous, which is also the really most important part of being a writer: is being jealous of other writers.

>> Who are you jealous of? >> Joyce Carols. >> Yeah, >> I'm jealous of Joyce Carol. I'm jealous of people who write in a similar vein as I do but better. Like Kate Atinson, I am so jealous of. I think she is one of the great writers, not the great thriller writers, but the great writers working today. I cannot do what she does. She mostly moves in the she's moved aside, but start certainly started on the mystery genre. And I would read her stuff and just be like, "Curse your Atkinson."Like, you made me cry and weep and laugh within the span of three pages. I I mean I go back and I will reread her stuff to go how did this magic happen? So it's it's people that do the things where I I'm just like I'll never get there. I mean I will I I know this. I I've got my own thing I'm good at. I'm not uh sad about it, but like I will never be at her level. I just don't have that game.

>> Never be able to cook that sauce. [laughter] >> Never. >> This was so fun. This was so fun. You're the coolest. >> You're so talented. I wish everybody next book at some point soonish. I will be coming back. Yeah, I'm coming back. >> Yes. >> So great to meet you. >> You too. Thanks for having me. >> Thank you.