The Anti-Addictive Playbook Behind Pok Pok's 9X Subscriber Growth | Melissa Cash

Android users do not equal iOS users. If we turned off Android tomorrow, we [music] would be fine. But what Android does is that it's helped our iOS retention, which is a lot of Apple families have a kind of like crappy Android tablet for their kids. Ultimately, the vision was really simple. Kids learn best through creative [music] play, and our kids are all going to grow up to have jobs that haven't been invented yet. We were really confident that our kids were being raised to memorize and regurgitate information instead of create things.

And we really wanted to help foster the next generation of creative thinkers. And so Pockpock is now best known for our Montasauri inspired app [music] for two to eight year olds that's designed to be your playroom floor but in a digital space. >> What specific channels are driving the majority of Pacpox's growth today? And then are there specific compounding growth loops that you all invest in? >> Yeah, we're still pretty reliant on Meta to be honest. We've always done a lot of work with influencers and influencer marketing has changed a lot in the last 12 months. Now we work way more with micro creators who are not even necessarily influencers but just really good content creators on Tik Tok and Instagram. And then now we're really honestly just [music] leaning super heavily into brand.

>> This unique challenge that you all face where the parent is the buyer but the child is the user. So how do you demonstrate value to a buyer who never actually uses your product? >> Good question. Welcome to Subversive, a podcast dedicated to sharing stories from the best consumer subscription apps in the world. We'll bring you lessons for how to grow your consumer subscription business, including insights and inflection points that led to exponential growth from leaders at category defining companies and innovative startups.

Let's get into the show. This episode is brought to you by RevenueCat. The world's best apps use RevenueCat to power their subscription infrastructure, manage customer data, and grow revenue across iOS, Android, and the web. From any developers launching their first apps to category leaders like OpenAI, Notion, and Ladder scaling to millions of users, RevenueCat handles the complexity of monetization so you don't have to. Learn more at revenuecat.com/subversive.

My guest today is Melissa Cash, the co-founder and CEO of Pockpock, an award-winning app that helps children learn through open-ended monastery inspired play. Pockpock was the first app ever to win both an Apple design award and an app store award, and it was named one of Time 100's most influential companies in 2025 after growing its subscribers 9x in a single year. In this episode, I talked to Melissa about how Pacpock has built a thriving subscription business on deliberately non-addictive design, about the specific growth channels and monetization tactics that have fueled the company's growth, and about how Pacpock has handled subscriber conversion and retention for a product where the parent is the buyer, but the child is the user.

All right, welcome to the Subversive podcast. Excited to have you on today to talk about your app, Pockpock. Uh before we get started though, why don't you just tell folks for those who don't know what is PockPock and then tell us a little bit about the path you took to co-founding this company a number of years ago. >> Thanks for having me, Phil. Sure. So, we're really obsessed with how kids play with their toys on the floor of your living room, for example, whether that's like hula hoops or Lego blocks or art supplies or musical instruments. And we became so obsessed with this that we were like, can we digitize this experience? Can we make this accessible using technology in a way that is just as creative and open-ended and and actually not addictive as playing with toys is? And so that's really the crux of why we started our company. And so PockPock is now best known for our Montasauri inspired app for 2 to

8year-olds that's designed to be your playroom floor but in a digital space. So we have this collection of toys and they're all very open-ended and we have no rules and no language and no Can I swear on this podcast? No ads. And uh so yeah, it's just like a really wonderful safe creative space for kids to explore and start to develop a healthy relationship to technology. >> And we started the company because my my co-founders are husband and wife, Esther and Math. And they have two kids and they're two-year-olds at the time was they were trying to figure out how to introduce him to technology. And they also had a newborn baby, which I know you like you know this Phil being a dad, it's a kind of a crazy time. And so, um, they tried TV, which didn't really work great for him at two. He was really having trouble getting away from the TV, so it was a lot of meltdowns. And then they worked in the video game industry

at the time and thought like maybe a game or an app could be great. But a lot of the games that they could find that were accessible to a 2-year-old were really basically like adult video games that had been like a little bit kind of dumbed down, for lack of a better word, with a preschool IP slapped on top and just really hard to to master. And then once he could master them, it was really hard to get away from them because they have all of that like sticky kind of addictive mechanics built in that video games have. And not that video games are bad for kids, but it was just not what they were looking for at the time. And on the other end of the spectrum was a lot of pedagogy and sort of memorize this, regurgitate that. And at two, this is not how kids learn. Like they should just be playing. And so that was sort of the impetus for them realizing like, hey, we could take the toys off of our

floor and try to digitize those. And so we got started cuz they worked in video games. And the long story short is my brother um is the co-founder of Snowman, which is the creative studio that made Alto's Adventure and Skate City and some pretty prolific mobile games. And um Math was freelancing for them at the time as an artist. And so Ryan kind of connected all of us and uh was like, "Yeah, you guys should you guys should work on this." And uh so we did.

[laughter] So we started a company. >> Well, I have to say right up front, I mean, as you said, I'm a father of two, a nine-year-old and a soon to be seven-year-old, but both of them have played Pacpock, and they absolutely love it. And what I love about it is that they don't melt down after they play it, even if they play it for a while. Uh, and so we'll talk more about the product and what's so innovative about it in a few minutes, but before we get there, let's just rewind a little bit on your career path. So before Pockpock and

before Snowman, you spent almost 5 years at Disney designing and building products for toddlers and babies. And so what inspired you to want to go build products for young children in the first place? >> Honestly, nothing. [laughter] Can I be really honest on this podcast? So it's funny like you know in your life you can really connect the dots looking backwards, but it's so [clears throat] hard to do that looking forward. So looking back, this was like completely the destiny that I was made for. Like I my first job, my first real job was at a toy store. I worked there for three years in high school while all my friends were working at like Abberrombie and being like really cool and I was working at a little educational toy store. But it was I loved it. And then when I um I moved to Europe, I moved to Germany right out of university and ended up uh bumping into a woman at a bus stop and she happened to work at

Disney. And then long story short, I ended up sharing an office with her many years later. So I kind of just fell backwards into it honestly. I met her and we were talking a lot and she said that she was a product designer at Disney and I was like, "Oh, like I love Disney. Who doesn't love Disney?" And I didn't even know there was a Disney in Germany, but it turns out it's the huge uh sort of headquarters in Munich for the whole like German speaking markets and it was a really big meaningful Disney office. And so after I met her, I ended up staying in touch and a job opened up there for product design and sort of product development. And I had never done anything in that field at all. So naturally I applied [laughter] and uh and then I ended up getting the job and I couldn't speak any German yet, but I figured it out and took lessons and uh ended up really falling in love with that space. and then kind of just

like again I I I moved back to Canada and it came I went in a totally different direction into like startups and that's when I met my co-founders and was like pulled back. So I just feel like though every time I kind of step away from kids I end up getting pulled back in. Uh which is awesome cuz I really enjoy it. >> Well I I find that those serendipitous moments in life you can't plan them but they end up having more of an impact than anything else in a lot of cases.

So, let's get into the story of Popock and let's start with the original vision behind the company and this decision to build a subscription business on non-addictive design, which runs contrary to a lot of subscription app models. >> So, you described the kids digital app landscape as 90% candy. Um, what was PawPock's original vision for changing this and how has it evolved since that initial vision? >> So, our original vision was to create something that parents could love equally as much as their kids would. And as a parent now, I can really see that like my kids use and consume and play with so many things that I'm not the biggest fan of, but I tolerate them because my kids love them so much and I know that they're not going to do any harm. But when when the like serendipity happens where my kid loves the same thing that I love for them, it's just like it's magical. Like for example,

most parents read to their kids every evening and you know the books you just are like, "You really want to read that one? Are you sure? And like you don't, it's just painful to get through these books, but then they pick up a book like The Gruff and you're like, "Yeah, let's read The Gruff." Uh cuz it's fun for you, too, you know? If you haven't read The Gruff, by the way, it's the best. >> Oh, I have. I have. >> Okay, awesome. So, I think with Pockpock, we were just like, how can we make something that meets kids at their level that is so inherently designed for them first, not to make money and not for the parents? And then once we had that locked in, we were like, "Okay, how do we also naturally make this for us too as parents? Like, how do we how do we get behind this? How do we love this?" And that came into a lot of the aesthetic and the way the way that it fits into your life because there's

nothing more annoying than your kid consuming media that sounds annoying in the background while you're on an airplane or sitting in your living room or at the doctor's office. And so we wanted to make something that sounded and looked really beautiful so that parents could also feel really great about it. But ultimately the vision was really simple. It was kids learn best through play, especially creative play. And our kids are all going to grow up to have jobs that haven't been invented yet. And so even though this was precoid preai it well prei in the form that we know it now um we we were really confident that our kids were being raised to memorize and regurgitate information instead of create things.

And we really wanted to help foster the next generation of creative thinkers. And so Pacpock was always grounded in this mission to raise imagination in the next generation of kids through play and in doing so building that healthy relationship with technology because one of my favorite people Ash Brandon once said she um they are a wonderful educator and creator and they told me like yes technology is inherently dangerous if it's not handled well but so is swimming and you don't wait till your kid's 18 and throw them into the pool. You teach them from one year old how to be in the pool, how to have what it feels like to have water on your face. If you're stuck in the pool and you can't get out, how do you get out?

And like you build the fundamentals and I I really think about technology the same way. Like we have to raise our kids to use this in a mindful way. And so Pockpock was always really grounded in that mission. And our hope and and suspicion was that parents would value that and if we could earn their trust that we could earn their dollars as well. And so even though the subscription might feel a little counterintuitive to a non-addictive product, it it does work because we deliver on all the things that we say we're going to. So parents are okay to pay knowing that even if their kid only uses it twice a month, it's that thing that their kid uses twice a month, but that they really love.

>> Yeah. Well, I love that analogy to swimming because it's like you would never wait until your child is a teenager to teach them how to swim or hopefully you wouldn't especially if you live near water and and technology is we're immersed in technology now. You can't avoid it. And so I don't think the answer is to bury your head in the sand. You want to expose your children to to technology, but you want to do it in a safe and responsible way.

>> And so let's talk a little bit more about how you've done that. Like what does Pop Rock look like today for kids? And then it doesn't have levels, it doesn't have points, it doesn't have rewards. And so, how do you keep kids coming back? Like, what is it that inspires them to want to come back and play even without all of those addictive mechanics that the gaming industry typically runs up? >> Yeah, it it runs on intrinsic motivation. So, it's kind of like if you start a puzzle on your dining room table and you can't get through it, but you just keep walking by it and like doing a couple of pieces cuz you just really want to see it finished.

>> That's Pockbox. So, the more you explore, the more the app gives back to you. So it's not not in a way of unlocking things cuz nothing is hidden. It's more just about discovery. And when you it kind of scratches that itch of intrinsic motivation. So kids are like, "Oh, I want to go I want to go see if like let's say they're in our dinosaurs toy and they're uh exploring prehistoric times with a Stegosaurus and an Ankalloaurus and and then they're they're in the like depths of storytelling when their parents are like, "It's dinner. Like come down."

They're like, "Okay, like I'll be right back." and then they they want to come back because they're like, "Oh, I left like Johnny the Ankallosaurus right by that water patch and like I want to know if you know he got eaten or [laughter] not." Like, so I think it's a it's an interesting it's an interesting thing, but it works really well. And we also really tap into kids curiosity so that we're constantly giving them opportunities to make a discovery. And people often ask us, how does it how is it possible that a 2-year-old and a seven-year-old can use the same thing?

because as you know kids grow so fast and they grow out of stuff so fast >> um especially of interests. So how do we do that? And that's a key piece to how we think about retention. So a 2-year-old playing with Lego looks very different than a six-year-old playing with Lego. Like my daughter's 18 months and she plays with my four-year-old's Lego. And how she plays with it is she throws it into a bin and see if she can get it in.

>> Like great. My son is building race cars with it and that's also awesome. But though as my daughter gets more curious and develops her fine motor skills better and learns more about the world, she'll start to actually put blocks together and probably start building things and then she'll get into like knocking them over phase and then you know like so you can grow with it and as you probably know being an adult man you may have Lego yourself like you don't grow out of that and so pock sort of designed to feel like that. So, if your kid is two, they'll they're really just like, "Oh my god, what is this magical thing in my hands? I can touch it and something happens versus the seven-year-olds who are telling like very robust stories or building really cool things in the app."

>> It reminds me a little bit of Pixar. I've always loved Pixar movies since I was a teenager myself, but they have so many levels to them. And so when you're a parent and you're taking your children to see a Pixar movie, you're excited, too, because there are going to be things set in that Pixar movie that sort of borders on adult humor, but it goes over the head of a child. And so it's perfectly harmless. And you've got the child who's enjoying other aspects of it. And I've enjoyed that about Pockpock as well. You have I don't know what exactly what the number is now, but you have a portfolio of dozens of different games on there. And there are different games that appeal to different age groups, but then within each game, to your point, like there are different levels to each game and so people can interact with it in different ways. And

you all famously grew your subscriber base 9x in one year, I believe it was in 2025, while while deliberately minimizing engagement hooks. So, how how were you able to get non-addictive design to fuel growth, whether that's through just appealing to parents and driving word of mouth or in other ways? And then what sort of challenges has it presented not going down that route? >> Oh my god. And bajillion. Is that a word? Bajillion challenges. So many. Um, how have we grown? I mean, yeah, we've had some really great years at Pockpock.

I think the the tipping points have often come through almost out of our control things, which is kind of crazy to say, and it's probably annoying. If you're listening to this podcast and you have an app and you're trying to figure out how to grow it, you're going to just roll your eyes and be like, "This sucks cuz I can't do anything about that." Um, but it all is layered on top of like fundamental obsession over growth and retention that we hold internally. And then when these like moments of serendipity or luck or or like big moments like winning an app store award, for example, when those things happen, your product is ready for it. So, as a really good example, we won an Apple design award 2 weeks after we launched the app. So, we had literally zero retention tools built in. If you wanted to unsubscribe, we're like, "Peace out.

See you. See you never." Um, we had one price globally. We had we made like every mistake you could make and we had this massive influx of people coming through the ADA and then we learned our lesson. We're like, okay. So, we lost a lot of those people. We actually kept a lot of those people because, you know, they were the early adopters and like the Apple Design Award customer was very much our customer. But nevertheless, like every piece of luck that we've had on top or every accolade or every like, you know, influencer or celebrity who's played with the app and posted about it is great for those little boosts, but then it all has to be laid on the fundamentals, which are obviously crucial to any subscription business.

And so, we've had to hold back on things we really wanted to do from a growth standpoint, but didn't want to do from a value standpoint. So, one thing we um did only in the last year is write down our core values, which sounds crazy because we're a really valuedriven company and everyone who works here knows our values, but we were running the company like it was, you know, you know, 1300 and like there was no paper like we were just everything was uh verbally passed down to team members.

>> And then we wrote it down. We were like that's now it's much easier to just kind of look over in the office and be like, "Oh, right. Yes, we don't do that. Um, so some a really good example would be so we offer a play kit to families. So if you sign up, we you can put in your address and we'll mail your kid a little kit in the mail for free. It's delightful and it's a really wonderful thing that we love to do. And um it's expensive though, but it does help impact retention. And so we want more people to request them. And most parents once they get into the app, they're not really hanging out in the parental area.

So, we were like, "How can we get this in front of them?" And, you know, some people on our team were really advocating for a popup. They're like, "Let's just do a popup right away." And and then the other half of the team were like, "Well, what if a kid sees that popup? How are they going to get rid of it? They can't read it." >> Uh, and like it's going to ruin the flow. It's going to change the like the user experience. And so, those are the kinds of moments where from a strategy standpoint, we're like, "We would love to put a popup in, but from a value standpoint, we're like, we could never put a pop-up in." And so we have to find some other way around it. And I think that as tempting as it can be to try all of those, >> I'm going to call them growth hacks, but they're really growth and retention tools, like all of those things. Um I think us not doing them has in the long run helped us more than it's hurt us

because >> of the people who stay with us, they really trust us. They know that when they open the app, their kids not going to see anything, >> anything but the the toys in the app. And they're never going to be able to accidentally make a purchase or unlock a thing or get stuck on or have a pop-up come up and then have to go bother the parent and be like, "Mom, I can't like cuz people no one no one wants that. Honestly, the kid doesn't want it and the parent definitely doesn't want it."

>> So that's been tricky honestly and especially we're venturebacked. So in the earlier days especially like whenever we go to fund raise this these questions always arise. So like okay but then after you raise the money you're going to start doing that right like well no. >> So that's that's always it's it's hard to convince people but I think we would grow faster with those things but I don't think we would have great I think our retention would suffer because >> we wouldn't have the trust.

>> Well or maybe said a different way you might grow faster early on but over the long run I'm not sure it's actually the growth maximizing strategy for you. I mean to relate it back to a children's story, it's sort of the tortoise in the hair, right? And there are so many subscription apps that have been very successful with these motivation and growth hack playbooks. Dualingo is often looked up to as a company that's done really well with streaks and badges and rewards and that works really well for their product and it's it is perfectly fine for them. But in your case, it would be really anathema to the core values and mission of the business. One of the advantages of the approach you've taken, and I've experienced this firsthand with my own six-year-old, is when we give her her tablet and she plays almost any other game or she watches a TV show or a movie and then, you know, we get to the end of our road

trip and it's time to put the tablet down, she has a total meltdown. But with PPP, that doesn't happen. And talk about a great retention tactic. I mean, if I know I can give my child pop and she's not going to make my life miserable, then I'm going to keep giving it to her.

So, how has that core value promise played with parents and how has it been its own way of retaining users and increasing lifetime value? >> Well, I think it's everything you said. Like, it's as a parent, you're just trying to get through the day and you're trying to be the best parent there has ever been on the face of the earth cuz we all love our kids so much. You're trying to find that compromise all the time. And I I feel it in my own house, too. Like, it's it's really tough. And and I think that because we've stuck to our values, we've been able to keep the trust we worked so hard to earn. Like nothing would break my heart more than to spend all these years trying to build trust with families to then make one decision that breaks it because at the end of the day like I you you probably feel this too as a dad, Phil. Like you when you when you find a thing that you trust for your kids, you're like you're

all in. You trust it. you tell your friends about it and it's this thing that you're like and and it's important. It's sacred. Like these are your children. I mean, we take that very seriously. So, I think for us it's really just about like making sure we're constantly gut-ing and being like, does this work for us? And I I also of course have kids who my daughter's a little too young for Pockpock, but my son has been playing it for over two years, and I can really feel it in the way that he uses it. and I in our own use cases and also how they change as your kids get older and like what the impact on them really is. And so, yeah, we're just really mindful of that. And I think in that in the long run, it's going to pay off for us in terms of retention and LTV and and even just like growing the company beyond the app because when we want to bring parents and kids into the rest of the pock ecosystem, the app, we have

that to lean on and be like, look, we made you this promise 5 years ago and we've kept it. So, uh, trust us to do the next thing, you know? >> Yeah. It's the ultimate way to build trust to communicate upfront and just be consistent about your values. Having said that, let's talk a little bit more about some of the specific strategies and tactics that you all have used to grow the business cuz you do have a very sophisticated product growth team and marketing growth team. We work with them last year and um and you guys have done a number of really inspiring things to

grow the business. So you you said that PopPock's monastery inspired positioning was a major marketing unlock for you. didn't initially launch the company to be monastery inspired but you repositioned it around monasuri inspired play. How did you land on that positioning and what changed in terms of your user growth once that happened? >> So pock is inspired by monasuri from a product standpoint always but we never thought it was a thing to market. For us the unique thing we're like there are monatory products everywhere. What's unique about pockpock is that it's open-ended and creativeled. And so when we launched the company, we went really all in on those positioning pillars and no one gave a So we were like, "Okay, that's not working. What do parents care about?" And we were trying to explain this thing that was really hard to explain cuz it was the it's the first of its kind. Like there is no

other kids app like Pock. So we were trying to explain a thing that it was like imagine you're trying to explain a new color to someone that they can't even see. Like it's just it's impossible. And then so what we what we realized at the time was that um I think it was a customer had written a review or something saying like this feels just like Montasauri and we're like oh well maybe that could work because it is very Montasauri. So we tried that and the word Montasauri it's funny you probably know this Phil from when we worked together but like if you ask our users what does Montasauri mean? I think only like half of them have any clue.

But what they do know is that it stands for really good education, often [clears throat] private and expensive education >> and creativity and independence. And those are >> pillars of pock and those are kind of like our values personified. So we're like there's this magic word out there that describes like 80% of what we're doing. Let's try using that. And uh and that worked. And so we we're actually right now testing veering away from it a little bit because >> we found that it's been so we've been very pigeonholed in that but the product isn't changing at all. Like it's always been a Montasuri inspired product. It always will be. It's just how do we sell it? And the kind of family that we're getting into our ecosystem are often the Montasauri homeschooling or just like techaware families that care about this kind of stuff. So it was a crazy unlock.

It's kind of like when you see ads for products and you're like, "It's the Uber of tomatoes or like whatever the thing is." Uh, it just helps kind of make that connection for people. >> This episode is brought to you by Paddle. Today's fastest growing apps are multi-channel. More teams are using web checkout to improve margins, control pricing, and build stronger customer relationships. But external payments bring new complexity from tax and compliance to fraud disputes, billing support, and entitlement logic. That's why Paddle launched the 2026 web monetization playbook. As the merchant of record for apps including Runna, Goodnotes, Codeway, and HubX, Paddle handles the complexity so you can focus on growth. Download the playbook at paddle.com/subversive.

Yeah. Well, the less is more lesson is one I've learned over and over again as a as a product growth person and a marketer. And I love how you describe it. It's like there's this magic word that already contains all of the meaning you're trying to communicate around your story. And so by compressing all of that into a single word, it's just really powerful in terms of acquiring users. So

let's get a little bit more tactical. What specific channels are driving the majority of Pacpock's growth today? And then are there specific compounding growth loops that you all invest in? Whether that's word of mouth or verality or its referral program, its SEO, like what what's driving the growth for PPA? >> Yeah, we're still pretty reliant on on meta to be honest. Um it's like meta it's like the golden handcuffs. like you're just >> I know >> I I guess everyone is in this boat or like a lot of people are at least. But yeah, Meta Meta is really strong growth channel for us. Um it's also where our core customers really are, especially Instagram. That's a big like we we target millennial parents, specifically moms. And so Tik Tok, Instagram have been really strong channels for us. Um I guess Tik Tok's not meta, but like I just loop it in a little bit. Um we've always done a lot of work with

influencers and it's worked to varying successes over the years. I mean, influencer marketing has changed a lot in the last 12 months. In fact, like we when we started influencer marketing, it was a lot more certain. Um, even though you never know which which creator is going to pop off, you know that like if you work with 10, it'll all even out at some point. And then that shifted about a year ago. We started to notice consumers were not really buying from creators the same way that they used to. Creators were even like >> knocking down our door being like, "Can we do something? Can we do something?"

Cuz they're not making the same money that they used to. And so we had to rethink that strategy completely. And so now we work way more with microcreators who are not even necessarily influencers, but just really good content creators on Tik Tok and Instagram. Some of them have big followings, but most of them have like 2,000 followers or something. But they're really good at making content. And so we work with them on a per video basis usually, and they get bonuses depending on how engagement performs and stuff like that. And so we're running this program internally which has been a a lot of heavy lifting actually but it's paying off because we're getting a lot of views and a lot of those views are from like real parents who use Pockbox.

So we always reach out and we're like, "Hey, we have this app. Do you want to try it? If you like it and it resonates with your family, we'd love to chat more about like a potential opportunity." And then once their family is using it and sometimes they're like, "We don't do screens or like it's not for us or whatever." But usually it works out. And um and then they'll start making content for us. And so whatever pops off organic, like I'm going to use the word organically, like very loosely, like quote unquote organically cuz it's paid, um will often then go using ads. So it's been it's been a really helpful tool of like how we've adapted to the influencer market. And then in terms of other growth loops, like we haven't been very good to be honest about referrals. It's been a tricky one um for so many reasons, but I think the biggest reason is because a lot of parents aren't like ready to run to the rooftops and be

like, "We use screens in our house." Like that's I think there's still a bit of taboo around it. So, we have some word of mouth. Um but the word of mouth we do have, it's like evangelical. It's like the people who believe are like hardcore evangelists for pock and spread it like wildfire, but it's really hard to get the average parent to go advertise that because I think a lot of parents still feel a little bit guilty or a little bit judged by how they use technology in their homes. And so that's something that we're actually trying to crack. If you have any ideas, but like that's a that's something we're trying to crack. Um, and then now we're really honestly just leaning super heavily into brand. So brand >> brand awareness at the at the very very top of the funnel. Um, we started a brand department about 6 months ago and their whole mandate is to like lead the conversation around all of the things

that are important to Pock as a brand and a company. And um, we're doing more partnerships. We just did a collab with Calm and like we're trying to find new ways to bring people into the ecosystem that feel a lot more organic because I think those are our better customers. Like we learned the hard way that sometimes you can grow really fast on Meta, but you're getting the wrong people. >> Um, and so we've we're like really trying to be mindful now about where growth comes from and who these and and target the right people in the right time.

>> I think that's so smart. I think a lot of VC backed tech companies make the mistake of overinvesting in performance marketing and ignore brand marketing because brand marketing is just hard to measure. But over the long run, it's it's almost analogous to your point around sticking to your values and you're playing the long game, but in the long run, it has compounding benefits. I think brand is the same thing, right?

It's not going to get you an immediate pop, but if you invest in brand and you keep your brand healthy over the long run, it has compounding benefits. Um, I

do want to double down for a moment on this micro influencer strategy because this is something I hear more and more consumer subscription apps talking about. The shift from like paying a few >> really big influencers with hundreds of thousands or even millions of followers a lot of money per video versus creating a portfolio of these micro influencers that have maybe 5,000 10,000 followers. But you in many cases you can hire 10 20 50 100 of them. And in some cases, you can also structure contracts so that you're paying them on a CPM basis. And so they only really get paid if they're driving impact. So how do you approach the program? And how have you figured out how to identify the best talent?

Like do you have particular things you look for in in identifying the micro influencers you partner with? >> I will say we are very lucky. We have the most wonderful person on our team who has eyes like a hawk and she just like feels she like I'll send her a crater. She's like no. like she's I'm like this person. She's like no. Uh so she just has the eye. Like I think some people honestly have an eye and she's very fast to call when she's wrong. So like she'll think okay this person might be good and she'll give them a try and if they're not they're done. Not in like a mean way. It's just like we don't have the kind of cash and time to be spraying and praying. So >> we try to everything's also super relationship focused at Pockbox. So like when we work with you, we like bring you into our family. Like we really try to build relationships because when A, it's the right thing to do. B, we're all just

floating around on a big rock through space. So like, let's try to make it fun. And B, I think when you do find those gems, you have this you already have this wonderful relationship. So you can it's easy to add to layer things on top once you once you like each other and respect each other and are kind. >> Um, but more practically speaking, >> how do we do it? So, uh, our like partnerships manager will spend a lot of time hunting on Tik Tok specifically. We usually start on Tik Tok and then go over to Instagram. Uh, for creators who make wonderful content and a very diverse types of content. So, with Pockpock, it could be like anything from like the Montasauri homeschooling mom to just like a even like crunchy mom or like a a a person who um just does like the day in the lives. It's like it doesn't even matter because on Tik Tok it's not about followers, it's about content and and so we we just really try

to find unique creators who have a point of view and are creative and how they talk about uh and how they talk about the product and we don't give them too much direction in terms of like you say this and you have to list these seven values like that's not how we we used to try that and it doesn't work. We find >> it comes across a little disingenuous. So we really trust people to just >> do what they think makes sense. We're like this is pukpock. use it with your kids once you get to know it. Let us know what do you think we should focus on. Um and then and then our partnerships manager will will give them suggestions and it's a lot of hands-on work. It is so tough to scale fast because a lot of it is admin. It's a lot of emailing. It's a lot of spreadsheets.

>> It's a lot of manual labor. And then it's a lot of attribution math because like you can't possibly attribute things in the in the same way that you could on meta. So, it's a lot of like calculus and it's very difficult. Like, we use AI to optimize a lot of the back end, but it's not enough like it's still very manual and we haven't figured out a way to make it less manual and do it well at the same time. My suggestion would be to just start with a batch of like let's call it 20 creators and then hope that you you maybe out of the 20 you get like four or five hits of people who are promising and we we look at benchmarks.

So, I think we usually give people a 1 month trial and say like, let's, you know, make one video a day for a month and let's see if you hit certain viewership thresholds, then like you get you can keep going and if not, then we're going to have to part ways for now because we just don't have the bandwidth to manage too many creators, honestly. >> Um, and so that that's been really great and it's been scaling quarter over quarter for almost a year now. It's remarkable how consistent the best practices that I've heard on these micro influencer programs are. I had um Daniel Heinesman who is the head of product at Cali on the podcast a couple months ago and he talked a lot about their creator program and it was very similar and the key lessons I'm hearing from you which are consistent with I what I heard from him were one you take a portfolio approach make sure that you're hiring a number of these people because you're

going to have lots of hits and misses. >> Two have somebody on your team who is really good at identifying talent. Um, three, make sure you're structuring your contracts in such a way that your downside is limited in a case where somebody doesn't perform and you can just cut them and move on to the next to the next person and double down on your winners. >> Um, and then four is don't overdirect what you want from them, right? Allow them to be authentic in the story they're telling. And then I guess the last one is one of the benefits of micro influencers and this portfolio strategy is you can go after people who don't have a lot of followers but are just really great content producers which is all that matters on Tik Tok >> and then you can target these different niches. And so for you you talked about the crunchy mom versus the monastery mom versus the homeschool mom. You can target these different pockets of users

with these different personalities. Did I get all that right? And anything else you would add to that? >> You did. Yeah. Great summary, Phil. Honestly, um you got it all right. The only other thing I'll add is that the I've heard I've met people who have done the same like a very similar program and they'll they go even faster, even bigger and they'll have very very aggressive thresholds like you've got a week to get a million views and if you don't you're out. Um but like if you do you get $1,000 cash or like you know like a little bit more aggressive on the incentives and the the downsides. That's not That's not how we've done it because of, you know, we've It's funny like we once had a creator who who kind of was like not doing great. Like it was we were on day like 28 of 30 or something >> and our man partnerships manager was like, "Yeah, so that person's going to be cut in a couple days cuz they're not

doing well." And then on the last day, she had a video go so big. We were like, "Okay, good. Good thing we didn't cut her." She just needed a couple weeks to like figure out how to position it properly, figure out how to film. Like PockPock's also a unique product. It's not just being like it's like cannabis gummies or like I it's a little bit more than that. So, we needed she just needed a bit of time. And now she's one of our best creators. So, it's it's I don't even know what the lesson here is, frankly. It could be like be aggressive, cut people fast, or it could be wait and potentially waste time and money. But I I just think like if you have a gut feeling about a creator, maybe keep an eye out because like they can they can surprise you. And it does take time. I think no one it's so rare that we'll hire someone and in the first week they're they have a video go viral or something like that has never happened.

It always takes a couple weeks. So I personally would give them more time. But I think if the person I'm thinking of who's done this with their um it's it's more ecom but they have I think like truly like 500 creators on the go at all times >> and they're con every week they're they're like filtering new ones in and out but it's really aggressive but but it's working because they have the manpower to manage that many people. We don't have that manpower. I think right now we have like 30 to 50 regular ones that we work with, which is already quite a lot for a small company like ours. So, um, yeah, I think it just being really mindful of the fact that like it it can take a couple weeks to get creators to like really figure out how to position your product for their audiences, especially on Instagram where the audience matters a lot.

>> I mean, I was going to say for me the lesson there is patience pays off. At least for your product. that seems to have worked for you in a variety of situations. And that relates to the next

question I was going to ask you, which is you all famously waited over two years to launch on Android? You focused entirely on iOS for the early part of the company. Um, was that patience rewarded and did platform expansion al ultimately turn out to be a key inflection point for your business? >> Payoff waited for sure because Android users do not equal iOS users. like it just at least for pock and I know for many other apps this is true as well. Um we waited it cost money and time and mental capacity and like it just was not worth doing in the early days until we figured out a lot of the fundamentals of the business and the unit economics and product market fit.

>> Um and then when we did launch on Android, yeah, we saw a boost but it wasn't company changing. We could like it matters but it's not driving the business. iOS is driving the business. Like if we turned off Android tomorrow we would be fine. >> But what Android does which I think is really I didn't see coming is that it's helped our iOS retention. And this is not something I can like fully prove with metrics, but I I know it in my bones because of the way that just like qualitative data from talking to users, which is a lot of Apple families have a kind of like crappy Android tablet for their kids cuz they'll buy like the $150 Amazon Kindle or whatever or Kindle Fire >> or they'll buy like whatever the cheapest tablet is cuz they know it's just going to get like covered in ice cream and destroyed at the bottom of their car. and so pock so they'll keep the subscription around for that device,

but they also want to have it on their phones for like the doctor's office lineup or whatever. Um, and so we had so many families asking for Android who were already users, which is really interesting. >> Um, we've h we found though it's also really nice and fast for testing. So we use Android as our like petri dish of testing ground. We do everything on Android first. It's lower risk, it's cheaper, it's fast. Um, and also like Google Play has some more unique testing functionality than than the App Store does. So we can do things a little bit differently there. Um, and so that's been really helpful for the company honestly. So from a not necessarily from just a revenue standpoint, but from a strategy standpoint, it's been great to have. I don't regret waiting at all. I think in fact, I was just talking to somebody building an app and I was like, don't do Android yet. Like just focus on OS cuz that it feels like no big deal,

especially with AI. you're like, "Oh, we can just like port it over." But it it takes up it like it lives in your brain rentree, you know? So, like I think having the focus in the early days really helped us. >> Yeah. Well, and especially for such a design focused app that's won many design awards. I just think the focus on iOS as a single platform app in the early days can be so beneficial and then you learn your lessons and then you can port them over to Android one time versus trying to maintain two apps in the early days when you're still figuring everything else out.

>> Yeah. It saved us a lot of money, too. >> Yeah. Well, and as you said, like monetization, I think it's something like 80% of app monetization happens on iOS versus Android. And so Android can be great as a petri dish and a rapid testing platform, but you're going to make most of your money on on iOS in most cases. Absolutely. And so there's there's a reason to focus on iOS first.

This relates to monetization. I do ask want to ask one question about monetization. So you all are a hard payroll app. You do have a free trial, but you're a hard payroll. You're not a premium product. And you've talked about how at one point you doubled your price and ended up ultimately doubling revenue. And so what sort of lesson is in there around monetizing apps for kids? And I guess one of the other lessons is just I think a lot of apps underpric their products early on out of a fear that they're going to alienate their early adopters. But in your case, raising prices worked out. And so what did you learn from that experience?

>> I learned your price is never final. I once met Patrick Campbell and he was telling me he's like if you don't change your price every year, you're living wrong. Like you should always be changing it. >> And that really stuck with me. And when we launched the company, we were so scared that Pock was so innovative and weird that we're like, we don't want price to be the reason people don't take a risk and try it. So, we launched at $29.99 a year, which in hindsight was nuts, >> but um you know, you live and you learn.

Um >> and so I think experimentation is just so crucial. To be honest, we lowered the price back down from that doubled price a little bit after we got to see some of the longer term retention metrics, but >> I don't know that we'll ever like I don't know where the sweet spot is still. Like we're still playing around with it. And um I just think like as a as a general rule of thumb like you should never think you've got it when it comes to price. I think there's always a tweak to be made especially when you're going on like a market bymarket level.

>> That sounds right to me. I mean, I think the big lessons are don't underpric too early. It's always easier to lower price than raise price. And then two, just always be testing. Like, don't be afraid to in to test different prices as you expand because the market changes, your product changes, your target customer evolves, and and so it's important to always be testing price.

>> So, the last topic I want to get into before we get to our lightning round is just this unique challenge that you all face building a product where the parent is the buyer, but the child is the user. Like, that's a very difficult tension to navigate. And obviously if if a parent doesn't know that their child loves the app, then they're going to unsubscribe even if it turns out the child actually is getting value out of it. So how do you demonstrate value to a buyer who never actually uses your product?

[laughter] [sighs] >> Good question. I I still feel like we're working on this to be honest. Um the main way that we do it right now is by giving a lot of parents giving a lot of information upfront. So it all comes down to trust. Like once pe once parents trust Pacback, they never look at it again. They don't go to the grown-up area. they don't like look at they don't see a push notification. They don't often their the push notification comes on like the kids's iPad, not on their phone either. So like that's kind of moot sometimes. We have to assume that they're never going to interact with us ever again. And so the we do a lot of frontloading. Um we do a lot that's where the play kit comes in too cuz the play kit comes >> probably like in the first month of your subscription. And so that's another like oh reminder like we've got this thing.

And then we built the play kit in a way where like hopefully you see things around your house that remind you pock exists. Um, which is really helpful. Um, and then of course we try we do a lot with like email marketing and on socials and stuff, but surprisingly like when we do user interviews, a lot of people don't even know we have an Instagram account for example. So, it's [clears throat] a constant challenge to be honest because >> as a user, you don't want to ever need to be in the app as a parent. Like once your kid's old enough to open it on their own, you don't ever need to be concerned with it. However, the challenge with that is exactly what you said, which is parents don't know that the kid's actually using it. So, we're constantly trying to dream up ways to do that where it doesn't destroy the user experience for the child, but it brings the parent in in a way that's not annoying. So we have other other touch

points now like we started a parenting podcast which has helped. We are investing a lot in the grown-up area this year. So it doesn't it looks the same as it always has right now but we're doing a lot in the back end to rebuild it and try to add more value for families. Um I think the the what we sort of realized is like it's not going to happen in the app mechanic where it would normally happen for any other app. We have to figure out a way to do it outside of there. So, um, it's probably going to be through brand and other marketing touch points that we remind you that pock is a thing >> and that we try to get your kid talking about it more. Um, which sounds a little strange, but it's it's once your kid is obsessed over with something, then they're they're never going to stop talking to you about it. So, we're trying to also just make the product as great as it can be so that the kid gets

excited and wants to bring their parent into the fold. But truthfully, this is one of our greatest challenges as a company is cuz like we we did what we're trying to do almost too well. So parents don't need to be involved, but then they're like [clears throat] >> they can easily forget once your kid's like five or six and has their iPad and they're like >> it's iPad time. That's not it's pockpock time. And then so >> they don't know what their kids necessarily doing cuz they just trust that like okay my kid has seven things on their iPad. They can use any one of them. they've been prevetted >> and you know they're off to the races.

But >> our younger users are all doing it with parents present. So we know kids who call their iPad pock because they're like three and that's all they know. But uh so that that's tricky. We try to build the habit while they're young and the awareness while the while the kids's young so the parents understand. But yeah, very hard honestly.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think one thing you said there resonates, which is at the end of the day, the the the best tool is to just build a great product that children love because if they love it, then they're going to tell their parents about it and they're going to they're going to be talking your ear off around the latest games on Pockpock and what they're discovering and what they're learning. Uh, but beyond that, there are some levers you can pull and and before we get to lightning round, let's just wrap up with how has this challenge influenced how you approach onboarding and payw wall design and and maybe life cycle marketing as well? like are there specific lessons you've learned around how to approach those typical product growth levers for a product where the buyer is different than the user?

>> Yeah, totally. We um the onboarding the pay wall is a constant iteration of course like any app but the what we try to do there is to ex show the parents why they can trust us. not just tell them, but like really show them. And then to reinforce that through little moments of delight throughout the journey. And we're trying to make it even more playful so that the parent gets a chance to almost like play with pock too. And so that's been a a really unique leverage point that we've had in the in the payw wall and during the onboarding. And then we have what we call internally the handoff. That's the moment the parent hands it off to the kid. And so we're really obsessed with the handoff and we're constantly designing for that. So it's the post on it's like the post payw wall. We call it post onboarding but like once you've paid and you're like okay now I can use this thing like let's or I've started my

free trial like let's go. That is where we have the parents attention still and usually the kid is not there yet. So that's like our little sacred moment where we're trying to build some kind of relationship with them and remind them like, okay, like go get a play kit, go sign up for our emails, like d um and then that handoff, like what your kid is into is so dependent on what how the parent treats it. So if you want your kid to eat >> something healthy, you're going to position that very differently than if there's cake on the counter, you're not going to be like, "Hey guys, there's cake on the counter." you're going to just like let it sit there and casually let your kid maybe notice it, maybe not.

>> So, we really want the parent buy in. Um, so we think about it, we obsess over that like post onboarding and handoff moment. And then with life cycle marketing, we're really just trying to remind the parents like your kid is learning, your kid is learning, your kid's learning, like we're here, we're here, we're here, we're here. That's really all we're doing. It's not um I think we have a long way to go in life cycle marketing. We're doing, I would say, like not the bare minimum, but we're not we're not taking full advantage of that communication lever with families because we're we're really just trying to strike the balance between being effective and being annoying because at the end of the day, again, this is a product for your kid.

Like, you don't really care if your kid drew a mermaid in Pockpock today. Like, honestly, like no one no one cares. You have so much random artwork from your kids all over the house. like [laughter] you don't you don't care for the most part. I mean maybe maybe the odd person does but like if you're reading your emails for the day and you're like your kid made a thing, you're like okay cute. But like what we're trying to do is add real value. So we're like we try to make the life cycle marketing truly special and like why the mermaid your kid drew is important or like what's different about it or like >> uh one thing we're thinking about is like the like this is what your kid drew six months ago versus what this is what they're drawing now. like look how their skills have evolved or like >> yeah or just like hey we have so and so on our podcast and we're talking about >> I don't know like toddler behavior like

that could be interesting you might be in the thick of it like we are like let's talk about that and just trying to build more connection but I think the the crux of it is just trying to remind parents like hey we're here and your kid still loves us and your kid's still using it and uh here's why you should just take 30 seconds out of your month to remember that we exist because I think that's truly one of our greatest challenges with that when when the user is not the customer.

>> Yeah, it makes a ton of sense and and again I'll speak to my own experience. I think our kids are still using PockPock years after they started using it and so much of it just comes down to they love using it and so they talk about it and that reminds us that they're still getting value. Well, let's get to our

lightning round. So, I always ask the same question to start and that's what's the best part about working at Pakpock and what's one thing you would change or are actively working to change? >> Okay. Uh the best part is the people obvious like hands down just they I just love the people who work here. Uh otherwise I wouldn't want to go to work. So really grateful to everyone who's joined our team and has dedicated their lives to trying to work on this problem with us. One thing we're trying to change is how we spend our time. So really trying to focus on working on the business, not in the business every single day like companywide. And so figuring out like what are the best processes around that and how to how to maintain that while we evolve from the company we once were to the company we're moving into because we've definitely passed that 0ero to one phase but we're not fully up and running on

like the next phase yet. Like there are still a few things that are sticky from those early days that we're trying to improve upon or just change because they don't work anymore because we we grew out of them. Um so that's what we're working on right now. >> That makes sense. And that last point I think is even more important now with AI because things are just changing so rapidly that as a company as and particularly a tech company you're not evolving fast then you're probably doing something wrong. Uh you mentioned you're a mother yourself you have two young kids. So how has pock made your experience as a parent better so much so much more sleep. My our use case with my son for the first like year before my daughter was born was just he would wake up at like 6:00 >> in the morning and we're like no thank you. So he would crawl into our bed with Pacpock on um the darkest like brightness setting and the lowest

possible volume and he would just snuggle in between us on my phone in airplane mode cuz it works offline and he would just play very quietly for literally 45 minutes to an hour and we would just get an extra chunk of sleep which is so priceless when you have young kids. So that's been my honestly like that's the truth that's my favorite >> thing. Um but that but um that aside, I think just watching my kids use it is like or my son, my daughter's too young, but like watching him learn and figure it out and give me feedback and it's just so cute.

>> I was wondering as you said that if your collab with Calm had anything to do with sleep because obviously Calm has made its bones on sleep and you're right like as a parent sleep is absolutely priceless and so it's a slept on part of your value prop. >> It's really true. We should really do more ads with like like is it 5:30 in the morning and you want to you want to stay in your bed like use PP. >> Yeah, totally. It's handy.

>> Well, you've talked a lot about all the creative things kids can do in Pacpock. Really, the sky's is the limit in terms of them using their imagination. What's the most creative thing you've ever seen a kid do in the app? >> That's a hard question, Phil. Um, what's the most creative thing I've seen a kid do? What I really love is so one kid was using Pacpock. He's like very into it and um and he was he was trying to understand how the animation works in it and he ended up >> starting to make animations on paper outside of the app from Pacqua. So he would make he was really into the space toy. So he was make he was drawing scenes from the app onto on this like easel of paper and he was drawing them almost like in a grid as animations. So like each you know you'd have like an astronaut with an arm in the air and then like the next frame would have the arm down and it was so interesting to

see him trying to animate pock on paper. This is a very obscure example but that was very cool. That was really creative to see. >> I mean to me that's who knows maybe he grows up to become an illustrator and just having that inspiration. There you go. Uh he could do your ad creative. Um that's awesome. You know, it's it's building new new skills based on the inspiration coming out of the games. >> Um so if you could go back, what's one thing you would do differently in Pockpock's early years? [snorts] >> The list is so long. Um the the most the biggest thing I would invest more in brand earlier. I would just start for me as a founder, from like a personal brand standpoint and as a company brand, I would have I would have been less afraid to invest some of that early venture money into things that can't be tracked and like throwing things out into the ether and just hoping for the best cuz

it I truly believe it always works. And it was less about the money and more about the focus back then. We just didn't have a big team. But I would have I would have somehow made that happen. Yeah. Well, it goes back to compounding gains and I think brand is a good example of something that benefits from compounding. SEO is a good example. Uh viral word of mouth is a good example. And so investing in those things early on.

>> Last question. What's one way that you think AI will change the kids gaming app space in the next two to three years? >> I think there's going to be a lot more content. I think it's going to be very mixed in terms of quality. So I think parents have to just be really mindful of what's out there. I think there are going to be some breakouts, some good things, some really good things can come if it's being done well, but I think there's also going to be a lot of garbage. Uh we're seeing it on YouTube right now. So, um and we're on YouTube now as well with like a calm YouTube channel for kids. And so, we're really trying to like fight against that from the the slop that's out there. And it's not just poor quality, it's like incorrect like alphabets with missing letters and stuff. Like there's I think people have to really >> uh learn from the YouTube >> failure on like letting kids AI content

through that hasn't been vetted cuz there is good or like what I'll say decent AI content for kids right now on YouTube but I think it's just going to continue to get better. So, I think we have to all like level up and also I would love to see more of an awareness from consumers and of and from creators to flag like when is it being used, when is it not being used and like celebrate it. If you're using it and it's great, awesome. Like wear that proudly. If you're not using it, awesome. Wear that proudly. Like I just want some clarity.

So, I think it's going to be a very interesting couple of years with a lot of new content just coming out every week probably. And in some ways, I think that brings us back full circle to where we started, which is how Pockpock has stuck to its values. And that has allowed you to weather the storm over many years now. And and as AI generates more and more and more slop, hopefully it allows Pacpock to continue to rise above it all and and stand out beyond all the noise.

>> Uh any parting words you want to leave the audience with before we wrap up here? Melissa, this has been such a pleasure and uh I want to thank you for what you and the team are building. We love the product in our family and and I know many others do too. But any parting words? Thank you for having me. Thanks for using it. Tell your give your kids a hug. Tell them thank you. Um, partying words. I don't know. Just like keep playing. Stick to your values. Nothing is easy. Obviously, building apps are hard, especially now when there are like what is it like 10,000 apps coming out every day. So, >> um, yeah, stick to your values because that's what's I think ultimately going to drive success. And go check out our new YouTube channel. It's called Studio Pacpock. It's delightful. My co-founders are doing it all inhouse, no AI. and it's uh really lovely.

>> I love it. Well, thanks again, Melissa. This has been a pleasure. >> Ditto. Thanks, Phil. Good to see you. >> Thanks again to Revenue Cat for sponsoring this episode. If you're building a subscription app, you can use RevenueCat to deploy native pay walls, run continuous AB tests, automate win back campaigns, and unlock more revenue. I work with dozens of subscription apps, and most of them are already using RevenueCat as their single source of truth to power their businesses. Learn more at revenuecat.com/subversive.