How Cal AI Hit $50M ARR in 2 Years by Nailing Product/Channel Fit on TikTok

A lot of people will just spend like years perfecting the product, where I think like the biggest risk for a lot of companies is getting traction and getting distribution. And so I think they started like um promoting the app within month two of building the app. The the app is seen on influencer videos. And so the app needs to be legible from like a distance away. Whereas I think a lot of people working on apps usually will probably just think about like what does it look like when you're holding it in your hand. We also include the company logo on all those core screens. I think I opened up a lot of people who had never really done calorie tracking before. It's so simple.

It's basically just tracking what food you're eating. Even if you're not necessarily tracking your calories to achieve a goal, a lot of people are just using it just to track their nutrition. >> Welcome to Subversive, a podcast dedicated to sharing stories from the best consumer subscription apps in the world. We'll bring you lessons for how to grow your consumer subscription business, including insights and inflection points that led to exponential growth from leaders at category-defining companies and innovative startups.

Let's get into the show. This episode is brought to you by RevenueCat, the world's best apps use RevenueCat to power purchases, manage customer data, and grow revenue on iOS, Android, and the web. Join more than 100,000 apps that are already using RevenueCat to grow their businesses and track more than $10 billion in spend, including category leaders like OpenAI, Notion, and Ladder. Learn more at revenuecat.com/subversive.

My guest today is Daniel Heinsman, head of product at CalAI, an AI-powered calorie tracking app that lets you snap a photo of any meal and get your calories and macros. CalAI was launched out of a high school bedroom in May 2024, hit 50 million plus in ARR in under 2 years, and was acquired by MyFitnessPal in late 2025. In this episode, I talked to Daniel about how CalAI scaled exponentially with a creator-first growth strategy, how it achieved product channel fit by designing its product from the start to be easily understood within a 10-second TikTok video.

And how designing its product for speed and simplicity helped to counter-position Cal AI relative to MyFitnessPal and other competitors, ultimately leading to its breakout success. All right, welcome Daniel to the Subversive Podcast. Really excited to have you on today to talk about Cal AI, which has been a meteorically rising AI app over the last couple years, recently acquired by MyFitnessPal, which is very exciting. Uh we're going to talk a lot today about the growth strategies and tactics that have helped you be so successful in such a short period of time. But before we do that, let's hear

a little bit more about your background and what led you to Cal AI. >> Yeah, I mean I I came across Cal AI, I guess only a couple months after they had launched. And I had saw them like growing quite quickly, and I know one of the founders, Blake, he had launched a couple apps beforehand, which had been quite successful, so I was following along. And then I saw this new app called Cal AI. And then only after like a few months they were getting like crazy traction.

And so I ended up connecting with Zach, the the founder of one of one of the founders of Cal AI, and just started having conversations cuz I was also working on on a similar app at the same time. And so we started talking, and I guess in the this was I started talking to them like 8 months into Cal AI, and they were already at like a million and a half MRR, and they had only started like what was it, 8 months before that. And so it was pretty crazy to see, so that's kind of why I was interested to hear more about what they were working on before like deciding to join the team.

>> I mean, it's one of the amazing things about the confluence of AI, which just makes it so much faster and less expensive to develop software, but then also acquisition channels like TikTok, which have so much viral upside that companies can just get exponential growth much faster than they used to. And that's going to be a part part of the conversation today. Uh before we jump into that though, tell me a little bit more about your professional background. So, you started as a software engineer, you spent some time as a designer, eventually pivoted into product. You've had stops at Facebook, Robinhood, uh and then you're now leading product at Cal AI. Um so, walk me through a couple of stops on your career path and and what ultimately brought you uh to to be the head of product at Cal AI.

>> Yeah, I mean I've I've always been like most interested in the zero-to-one process of building a product. And like startups are like the best way of learning that. And I think you can learn a lot from like working at those bigger companies like Facebook and another company I was at Robinhood and Snapchat. And so, getting to see like both sides of it is pretty cool. I think what was like most interesting about Cal AI, which I'd never really seen before, is just how quickly they had grown. And so, I think it's probably one of the fastest consumer like AI apps that have launched like um in the last few years. And so, and I think also with consumer apps distribution like the most important piece is like the biggest risk for any of these companies. And so, that's what kind of got got me interested with Cal AI.

>> Yeah, I think that's a really key point and it's it's a central part of the episode we're going to discuss today, which is it used to be building a great product was the key to everything else. You build a great mobile app and eventually distribution will figure itself out. I think that's been turned on its head now because AI makes it so much faster and easier for anybody to write code an app in a weekend. And so, distribution has become the biggest bottleneck in many cases, especially for consumer products, as you said.

And so, through that lens, let's go back

to May 2024. That's when Zach and Henry originally co-founded the Cal AI app. They were both still in high school at the time. Can you say a little bit more about what that origin story looked like to the extent you You the story? I mean, I know you weren't at the company yet at that point, but how did they come up with the idea and why did they think they could succeed in a category that was already so crowded? >> So, as far as I know, the they built the app within like a month or two and started marketing it right away.

And I think that's what's unique about them versus like every a lot of other founders is a lot of a lot of people will spend like years perfecting the product. Where I think like the biggest risk for a lot of companies is like getting traction and getting distribution. And so, I think they kind of like thought of it as the opposite, right? Like they started like um promoting the app within like month two of building the app. And so, yeah, they didn't spend a ton of time building and if you actually like look at screenshots of the initial version of the app, it's like very bare-bones. And like they were going viral like off of just just that. Like it all you could literally do is there was like a plus button where you could take a photo and then all it would do is just show you the calories and macros of that specific meal. Like it you couldn't see like the number of calories that you've eaten that you've

had the entire day, like things like that. Like there's a lot of things that we've added since then, but they just focused on like that like core um hook of the product. And I I I guess that's all you really need to do, right? If you can if you can come up with the hook and then try and market that, then that's all you really need, right? >> Well, I think it's such a good lesson in the old adage that less is more and particularly for a mobile app in a crowded category and an ecosystem where there are now hundreds of thousands of consumer subscription apps in the app stores and everybody is trying to get distribution on Meta and Google and TikTok. In some cases, it's actually better to have a product that is so simple that it can explain itself in a matter of seconds because anything that's more complicated than that just creates friction that's going to make it harder to grow.

And I think that's a great segue into the first topic that we wanted to focus on for this episode. And that's this creator-first growth strategy, which has been so central to Calia's growth story and how it's been able to scale so quickly. So, my understanding is early growth came almost exclusively from fitness creators on TikTok and Instagram. Can you walk me through why the co-founding team was so adamant about that approach to distribution and why they thought it could work for them.

>> So, fitness creators is is interesting cuz they like embody the end result of using like a calorie tracker. And that's also like why influencers work really well, I think, right? Cuz like influencers the concept of that is that like you're going to influence people to buy a product. If they embody like the end result of like having a fit body and showing that this that they're using this product, then it makes sense.

The other piece with like fitness creators, which uh I think is good about this niche, which I've talked to like the team about this before, like why is it a good niche, is there's just so many of them. >> Mhm. >> There's like a lot of people on social media that like to show um like themselves at the gym and like showing like the progress that they've made. And just being that there's like so many of them, it makes it like a really good niche to do influencer marketing in cuz like there's just infinite number of people that you can work with in terms of collaboration.

>> What I'm hearing there is obviously influencer-driven UGC content on platforms like TikTok and Instagram is an increasingly common playbook for a lot of consumer apps. But in health and fitness in particular, the unique advantage that an app like Calia has or Ladder is another great example of a strength training app that has heavily used influencer coaches to gain early traction is the proof is sort of in the person themselves, right? If they are really fit, either in your case because they're eating healthy or in Ladder's case because they're doing these incredible strength workouts, then that shows in their physique and in their physical appearance, which makes for a really appealing TikTok or Instagram video. Uh and so it sounds like this was a great example of product channel fit within your specific category.

I guess a more tactical question is

how did you all go about identifying, recruiting, onboarding, and compensating these creators? Cuz when I talk to other companies that are trying to replicate the success that a company like Call AI has had with influencers, one of the hardest parts is just knowing who to recruit, how to set them up for success, how to manage a large number of these micro influencers. How did you all think about that? >> There's like a number of factors, like one of them is like having like very I mean one is like they consistently get a lot of like attention and views on social media.

So like a good baseline is like say they like consistently get 100k views per video. And the other piece is like that consistency, right? Like you can have like 100k views on a video, but then if that influencer can only sustain that like in one or two videos, and then like the next video just goes right back down, it's hard to know like like what you're what to expect, right? So yeah, I think like having high like a high minimum like view count is like one piece as well as like the consistency in their views.

And I think the like the other like big piece that the team looks for is um like engagement in the comment section. And so you there's a lot of like ways you can look at it just by like reading the comments and seeing like if people are actually asking the influencer questions or like praising the influencer and making it seem like that that creator is um could like having an an impact in terms of like emotionally Mhm.

On on the audience. And so I think that's like another piece that the team looks for is like cuz there are some creators that all all you see is people just like reacting in the comments or like not really like being that engaged. And a lot of the times those are just like viral videos. And they won't they won't drive people to the App Store and go download this app that they're using, right? >> Yeah. I think the through line I'm hearing there is you want to make sure you're avoiding one-hit wonders. You want people who are consistently generating high-quality content, are getting significant views on that content, but also significant engagement. And when we've managed influencer programs for a couple of our clients, we've looked at metrics like views per post is an obvious one, but things like comments per post or um stripping out the outliers where you take out their top three to five posts

and you make sure that they're not just building a reputation on the basis of a few videos that went viral, but they actually have consistent hits. Is that consistent with how you all think about finding the right creators? >> Yeah, exactly. Like the the other piece with So, if you're working with an influencer, it's a paid ad, right? At the end of the day. And so, paid ads generally perform worse than average content. And so, you have to like expect that you have to expect the worst pretty much. And so, like if you look at like what is the worst video, like how does that perform on their on their content?

I think that's like probably the best indicator as opposed to like, "Oh, this person can hit millions and millions of uh of views." But like if they can't do that consistently even on their worst post, then um usually it's it's not going to work out. >> Yeah, so you got to remove the outliers. Another thing you said there is important, which is TikTok in particular is a very hit-or-miss channel, right? So, you what I've heard is the companies that have success on TikTok with influencers are generally taking a portfolio approach.

They have dozens or hundreds or even thousands of micro-influencers working for them posting content regularly. And then they set up their compensation structure in such a way that their downside is protected in cases where they've got misses. So, how did you

compensate your creators? Was it on a paper post basis? Was it a flat fee? Was it based on performance where it was driven by the number of views they generated? Uh how did how did you structure your compensation program? >> Like a lot of the posts have like a minimum view requirement. So, like Um and that's going to be based off of like what is super achievable for them to get, right? Like if they can if they consistently hit this view count, then is it going to be manageable for for them to hit it, but um it definitely like helps with what you're saying there is like reducing the risk involved.

Um cuz I I have like tested even like before working at Cali, I was working on like some apps and we would do like influencer posts and then like you'll you'll work with one influencer who doesn't want to do the minimum view count and they're like that that video doesn't end up performing or doesn't get the view count. And then you're stuck in a situation where like neither of you is happy cuz like the creator is no longer working with you cuz like it wasn't a profitable post and then you're not getting like the downloads from it and so I think that's like the one thing the team also does like a number of things like bonuses if they hit like a certain number of views, things like that.

>> Got it. Okay, so you're both protecting your downside with a minimum view threshold that they have to hit to be able to pick get anything from from the post. But then you also provide additional upside where if they exceed a certain target, then they get a bonus or their compensation is based on performance, which makes a lot of sense. Um I think

another thing you guys are famous for is giving creators a lot of freedom. And so, you're not giving them these rigid scripts where they have to follow particular sound bites or it needs to be a highly prescriptive length. You're You're giving them freedom to play within a certain set of parameters. Obviously, there are tradeoffs to that approach, but why has it been so successful for Cali AI? >> The The team does really give like a lot of creative freedom to um these creators.

I think basically like the it's basically just guidelines as opposed to like giving them a script. So, they'll just give them basically just show like the core magic moment of the app, which is like take a picture and then see the calories and macros, like the end result. And beyond that, the the creators have full creative control as far as I know. So, um and I think that makes sense being that like, you know, creators are like the experts in this space, and so you don't necessarily need to like prescribe how they're supposed to go viral.

Um you can kind of leave that up to them. And the the other piece I think why we don't like script it out too much is like a creator's audience has come to learn what type of content that creator is like usually posts. And so, if you go kind of like too far out of that and like start start posting about like this app, the the the views are just going to tank because people are going to feel like it's a it's an ad, and they're going to be feel like they're being sold to, and they'll just move on to the next video.

And so, I think that's the other reason why the the team doesn't give like a a ton of guidance to the creators, and just kind of let them let them do as they as they choose, pretty much. >> Yeah, so what I'm hearing there is really three key reasons why you give them so much autonomy. One is they're the experts, so rely on their expertise, don't micromanage. Two is you want to make sure that the content comes across as authentic.

And that helps to avoid situations where it feels stilted, or it doesn't feel like a fit for their audience, uh which leads to less viewership and less engagement. And then the third is just motivation. Like giving creators artistic license to say what they want to say, and format the content the way that they want to format it, it probably just leads to more energy and more passion behind the content they create. >> Yeah, it's also more scalable for the team, too, right? Cuz I think I think yeah, Jake even had mentioned at one point that the team was managing like 300 creators that were actively posting all at once. Like all in the same month. And so but you can't really like you can't really tell create all these creators like what to do and like give them scripts.

>> Totally. >> them all feedback and so it's I think a scalable scalability is the issue. >> The The other piece I was going to mention was uh it feels a lot more authentic, right? Like if >> Mhm. >> as opposed to like say a creator like goes to the camera and starts saying like you should go download this app. >> Yep. >> If they're more like just showing them using the app as part of their regular like everyday life then it's a bit more authentic.

>> What is prescribed? Like it sounds like there are very few fixed criteria, but is there anything you say, "Hey, in order to qualify for our program you need to follow these very short set of rules." >> Yeah, it's it's not many. Like the key things are just showing the app and >> Mhm. >> like the core screens of the app, which is like the camera, the app like analyzing the the photo that you've taken, and then um the result screen. And the other key point is the the team like asked these creators to show it like relatively like early on in the video.

Cuz we I think I even seen this before as well where like some influencers will do an ad, but they'll do it like at the end of the video. So like they'll have like a minute-long video and then promote the app like at the end. And so it's because I I don't know you've probably seen like the retention metrics on like a lot of videos. It goes like straight down. >> Yeah. >> yeah, like you're going to like lose a lot of people by the end of the video.

>> Yeah, that makes sense. So really just two rules is what I'm hearing. One is make sure that you're highlighting the key features of the app. And two is make sure you're doing it quickly, presumably in the first 5 to 10 seconds before you get the major drop-off in that curve. And then beyond that, it's it's up to them.

>> Let's talk a little bit more about You guys cracked this creator-driven growth strategy, but then you ended up layering on more traditional paid ads and then affiliates. So, can you walk me through and I and I know you lead product, and so some of this falls more on marketing, but I know your your marketing strategy is very synergistic with your with your product strategy. We're going to talk a little bit about that in a minute.

So, why did the company decide specifically to start with creators, then move to paid ads, and then move to affiliates, and how did those three channels sort of build on the success from the previous channel? >> As far as I know, they never really tried ads from the beginning. Once like the team was actually put like a really good effort into it, I think that's when it started producing good results. Um and I think that was partly because influencers were just working and they were like profitable at like all the way like early on.

And so there wasn't really necessarily like a need to, right? The way that they the team like the evolution of how paid ads had worked, as far as I know, is um like the videos that influencers were posting like were repurposed and like edited in a way where you could show it as a paid ad. Um but like these videos, they were designed for to achieve views organically as opposed to with through paid ads. And so I think like the the difference between like those types of videos is if it's organic, you just don't want you don't want to tank the views.

Um and then with paid ads, you want to make sure that you're trying to get people to download the app. So, it's like a different goal. Yep. That's how they started, and then I think since we didn't have a lot of like inventory of videos that were designed for paid ads, um like the paid marketing team like started this like affiliate program where they would like have like dozens of creators creating videos just about Calai.

Those videos were like literally designed for paid ads. And so and then those affiliates would get like a like a commission off of the revenue. And so they were incentivized to like really like iterate and evolve those videos over time. And yeah, that that was like really when once we start once like the team started like going all in on paid ads, that's when Calai really like like took a like a step change in in the growth.

>> Well, and I imagine part of that is TikTok and creator driven content in general has really high upside, but it's much more volatile and hard to control and predict. Whereas paid ads, once you start just running them consistently on a channel like Instagram, are much more reliable and consistent around the money you put in and the money you can expect to get out. And so what I'm hearing is a couple things. Like one, the creator driven UGC approach was much more about volume, building awareness, getting Calai's name out there, developing early traction.

Whereas paid ads are much more about depth and the quality of the engagement and the reliability of being able to convert a view into a click into this trial start into a subscription. And then the other piece is at some point it becomes a volume game where you're trying to get enough video content from your UGC that you can then pour more fuel on the fire of your winners and convert them into paid ads. This is a strategy going back to Ladder that I know they have run to perfection, where they've got their influencer coaches creating content and then they they take spark ads to expand reach on TikTok and and pours more more fuel on the fire.

And so it sounds like these sort of stacked on top of one another once you got to a certain scale. >> Also, people a lot of people had like heard about Cali AI through influencers, and maybe just hadn't really had a chance to go download it. And so once you like have some initial people have heard heard about it like through through influencers, that the paid ads just work a lot better, I think. >> Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. There's I've never been a marketer like you. I'm more of a product person, but I've heard an anecdote that you need roughly 10 brand impressions before somebody's really ready to try a product and certainly to pay for it. And so the creator-driven content just provides a lot of brand impressions, and then eventually you can really use paid advertising as a more targeted way to get somebody to convert into a subscription because it's leading directly into a purchase funnel.

Uh well, I think that segues nicely into the second topic, and that's

you you all famously designed your product from the very beginning to maximize product channel fit. And specifically, I'm interested in talking about the design decisions that were made both before you joined, but then after you joined as head of product, to make sure that the app was simple enough that it could be easily understood within a 10-second TikTok video. So how did the team think about product design decisions through that lens?

>> I have like focused a lot about on like those like three core screens like I was mentioning, which is like the like just taking a photo and like getting getting the colors and macros. And so I think there's like a few things that we think about when it comes to that screen. Like one is that the app is seen on influencer videos, and so it needs to be the app needs to be legible from like a distance away. Whereas I think a lot of people like working on apps like usually will probably just think about like what does it look like when you're holding it in your hand?

>> Mhm. >> And so things like making sure like the text is legible from like a distance away. >> Mhm. >> Um we also include like the the company logo like on all those core screens. >> Mhm. >> And that's like another way in which like people can know like what app this is because a lot of these times like the creator will sometimes like tag us in the video, but it will be so subtle in the app that people won't really know.

And so, the only way that people will know what app this was to go download it is like one, reading the comments. But if there's no comments, you have to like look at the video again and see that like what the name of the app was. And so, that was like another thing. The team also like we we also have like a an app specifically made for creators. And that's because um we want to make sure like they get um an app that will look at good on camera.

>> Mhm. >> this like version of the app it will show like the that the creator has like a streak. So, like it show that they've been using the app. And like it shows like a history of other meals that they've logged on the app. And so, it kind of like gives us an impression that there's like social proof of people using the app um in those videos. And so, those are like a few things that we kind of think about when when designing those core screens.

>> This episode is brought to you by Paddle. Today's fastest growing apps are multi-channel. They use web monetization to reach new audiences, improve attribution, and boost margins. But selling on the web gets complicated fast. Managing currencies, taxes, fraud, and disputes gets increasingly difficult as companies scale. Paddle solves this. As the merchant of record for thousands of apps, including Runna, Goodnotes, Codeway, and Hubex, they take on the complexity of web monetization so you can focus on growing your business.

Learn more at paddle.com/subversive. >> Yeah, that's really clever. I mean, you think about a company like Uber and why they would obviously need a dedicated driver app versus a rider app. Or same thing with Airbnb for owners versus renters. But I had never thought about this idea of like having a dedicated app for creators to help ensure that their content shows as well as it possibly could. And then the whole notion of put your logo on all of the core screens that are going to be featured in these TikTok videos. Make sure the text is large enough that it's legible even in a very brief TikTok video. It makes a ton of sense and it's such brilliant innovation that contributes to perfect product channel fit.

There's another channel that you all have really focused on and that is word of mouth and virality. And so you added streaks, milestones, progress photos. All of those viral artifacts help in driving offline and online word of mouth. Can you talk a little bit more around how you thought about the prioritization of features like that that could contribute to word of mouth above and beyond what you were getting from the creator content?

>> Yeah, those are those are all features that we worked on like after I I had joined the team. Um yeah, like things like adding streaks, milestones, like being able to see like your before and after like progress photos as you're like using the app. Like uh seeing as your weight is changing. >> Mhm. >> I think like a lot of those were like what what you had said there was like based off of trying to achieve like that product led growth because innovation with the influencer marketing is that like it gives this impression of social proof of people that you look up to and respect and like you follow on a daily basis, they're all using this app.

And then so there's like that piece of social social proof. But then if we could like the goal was to like what if you could get that same level of social proof but from people that you already know like your friends and your family. >> Mhm. >> So if you saw like your friends and family like posting that they like just achieved like a 30-day streak of using the Calia app and posted that to like Instagram or to like a group chat or if they were like to to share like this meal that they logged or that they lost this many pounds and shared that to social media.

It's like another level of social proof that gets people to want to download the app. Um cuz I feel like people just only want to download apps that other people that they know use. >> Uh-huh. >> Cuz like the majority of people don't want to be early adopters, so uh I think those are like really key in so like getting people to do more word-of-mouth growth, so. >> Yeah, I think that's very true. There's the whole crossing the chasm framework of you got the early adopters, but then you have the early majority, the late majority, the laggards, and the vast majority of the population is going to fall into one of those last three buckets.

And then I also think as the App Store's gotten more crowded, that effect has been amplified even further because at this point people have enough apps on their phone. They don't want to add another app unless it's really going to be valuable, and social proof is a great way of validating that. I'm curious, so you have you have these artifacts people can share streaks, milestones, progress photos. It also taps into narcissism and you know, the the desire to come across as somebody who has their act together and who's successful. Um to what extent did the majority of the virality that came from these artifacts happen through one-to-many social channels like posting on Instagram or TikTok, for example, versus did you also invest in sharing flows that just made it easy so that if somebody wanted to text or email a friend with a shot of their streak or their nutrition progress, they could do that, too. Like

which of those two ended up being more powerful for you all? >> It's hard to say. We introduced like a few other features like referrals. So like you get $10 for referring a friend. And you can refer a friend like before you even pay for the app like as part of like a referral during onboarding. >> Mhm. >> So we tried a few things like that. I think I mean like the majority is from like influencers and like paid ads. I think that's I guess it's a bit harder to say with the one-to-many versus one-to-one just cuz it's like it's hard to track that kind of thing.

>> Yeah, I mean that's what's so difficult about word of mouth in general is especially if if it's happening offline but even if it's happening online it can be very difficult to track unless you have a direct one-to-one >> sharing flow and in general >> Yeah. >> that just doesn't drive enough volume to end up being the majority of your acquisition. So that makes sense. Let's

Let's shift gears and talk a little bit more around product-led growth and more specifically onboarding and paywalls are critical for maximizing conversion. Um that's where a lot of the leverage is in the conversion funnel. What are some of the specific and largest unlocks that Cal AI has found over the last year or two for optimizing its subscriber conversion funnel? >> So when I joined the team like the onboarding flow had performed like quite well. So we had we actually haven't touched it as much as people think but I think there's like a few things that we we have tested. So like one of them is like just showing the value proposition like right away.

So like as soon as you download the app and open up um like the first screen of the app we have a video that shows like someone taking a photo and like it shows the end result with the calories being counted. So it matches what they had seen on social media. >> Mhm. >> And we also include that same video on the paywall. So they're getting like reminded that like this is like what they're paying what they signed up for as well as like this is what they paid for.

>> Mhm. >> I think adding like animations and like illustrations on onboarding to explain the product and make the app feel a bit more like sophisticated and personalized I think uh we had seen like we did some tests and I think that performed quite well. And then, with the paywall itself, I think the team like wanted to focus it's kind of like a bit I don't know if it's controversial, but it's like different than the industry where Calorie AI's priced way less than any other in the calorie tracking space.

And I think like the founders were thinking that like that would help with word of mouth growth because if it feels like a like doesn't feel like a lot of money and so like an impulse purchase, then they're more likely to share it with a friend versus say the app costs like hundreds of dollars a year to spend on it, then you're going to be very selective with like who you recommend the app to because you're not going to feel like it's like a good recommendation if you don't think they're going to find value in that uh, amount that they're spending on the app, so I think pricing it low helped with Calorie AI a lot.

>> Yeah, that makes a lot of sense and I think an important part of that is just how all the different pieces fit together. And it's a great segue into

our last topic for this episode, which is how you all deliberately counter-positioned yourself against other larger incumbent calorie trackers in this very crowded space by focusing on I think a slightly younger demographic, perhaps a slightly more price-sensitive demographic, and a demographic that really valued speed and simplicity even if it meant that on the margins, it's still very accurate, but it's maybe not the most accurate product on the market and it doesn't have to be cuz there are diminishing returns to accuracy beyond a certain point. So, let's talk a little bit more about who was Calorie AI's ideal customer profile in the early days? And who were those early adopters that it was really targeting that were differentially excited about Calorie AI's product and price point relative to MyFitnessPal or other larger incumbents?

>> So, with with Calorie AI, it does skew a bit younger. >> Mhm. >> And so, uh I think that's partially because of like who's on social media and watching these like these videos from creators. And so, a lot of the users that were acquired were like based off of the audience of those of the influencers we we worked with. And yeah, I think a a lot of it is I think it opened up a lot of people who had never really done calorie tracking before.

>> Mhm. >> Because it's so simple. It's basically just tracking what food you're eating. Like even if you're not necessarily tracking your calories to like to achieve a goal. A lot of people are just using it just uh to track their nutrition. And so, that's another piece that I think like differentiates it from other apps where like people are using it with the end goal in mind of like trying to lose weight or gain weight. I mean, a lot of people do do use Calorie AI for that reason, but I think there's like a mixture of like it kind of like unlocks like a a bigger audience, right? Where it's so easy that you don't necessarily need to have that like such a end goal in mind in order to use it.

>> Yeah, I think it makes a ton of sense. I mean, you can find so many analogs for this both in B2C and in B2B where categories tend to converge towards two dominant players. One that is at a higher price point, offers a broader range of features, and appeals to power users that really want the best possible product. But, they're going to pay for it versus a simpler, more streamlined version of the product that's less expensive, faster and easier to use, but good enough for a broader population. Uh one example of this is it's a little bit of a different case, but Strava acquired Runna almost exactly a year ago. And in my mind, there's a little bit of an analog there where Strava started with cyclists, eventually expanding it into running, but it wasn't their initial target ICP.

And then even the runners who are on Strava, some of them are very serious, but some of them are just using Strava as their daily running app. And then Runna comes along, uses AI as well as just hyper-personalized onboarding experience, iterative workout plan that sort of helps you prepare for your next major race. That was their initial beachhead was, "We're going to help you train for your next marathon, your next half marathon, your next 10K."

And that meant a different target demographic, different price point, different growth strategy, all of which Runna did a great job of crafting under a very coherent growth plan. And ultimately that leads to a different set of users on the app that was very complimentary to what Strava had already built, which made them a very attractive acquisition target uh when Strava decided they wanted to go buy them. And so it sounds

like CalAI followed the similar playbook where people who are using more of the traditional calorie trackers, they're paying a large amount of money for those products. Those companies in many cases are growing largely through paid advertising. So they're making more money per customer, but they're also spending a lot more money to acquire those customers because they're not benefiting from as much organic word of mouth.

And as a result, they can only go after a certain segment of the market that has more money to spend, which leaves white space in the market for CalAI. Is that pretty consistent with how you see it? >> Yeah, I thought that was a really good example with Runna and Strava. I I I worked at uh at on the Robinhood team >> Mhm. >> a number of years back, and I feel like that's another similar example, right? Where uh you're going after a younger audience, but also an audience that's more price sensitive.

Being that like they removed the commissions, and which helped with word of mouth growth. And so Yeah, I guess it's like a story that is kind of analogous in like many different different situations. >> Yeah, totally. I think even let's take the dating category. That's another great example, right? Before Tinder came along and revolutionized online dating for a mobile device, a lot of the dating apps were more complicated. You had a whole slew of dating apps prior to Tinder that just required you to fill out longer forms and jump through more hoops and there was a lot more friction in a category where it was already a little bit uncomfortable at that point to be using an an online dating platform. It's become much more normalized over the last couple decades.

But Tinder comes along and they just make it super simple. You got to swipe left, swipe right. They make it more fun, easier, more viral. And so it's a similar sort of playbook and and I say I think you see a lot of these analogs and credit to you guys for really cracking the code on how to make a simpler and more democratized version of the product in nutrition and and calorie tracking. Let's talk a little bit more about the MyFitnessPal acquisition. So MyFitnessPal acquired CalAIT in late 2025. To what extent do you think the complementary nature of your product and customer base played into that being such a such a great acquisition on both sides? And I know you probably can't share everything, but to the extent you can share, how did you all think about that and and to what extent do you think MyFitnessPal looked at it that way?

>> They both are like similar in terms of like they solve same problem, but I guess they both apps solve it a bit differently. >> Mhm. >> And so I think I mean MyFitnessPal is great because it like it's so like feature-rich and like for people who are like more serious about their health journey, they're like more willing to like put up with more friction, but there's going to be like more more things that they can do within the app.

>> Mhm. >> Whereas I think people who are younger and like more just like getting started, I think Calorie is like I mean it has that younger audience, but it's also like much it's like more less less friction in order when you're like logging food. And Calorie has like added more features like that so like to improve like the accuracy um like we had like barcode scanning, you can like look up meals in the food database for like the exact calories and macros and things like that, but I think that's like I guess like a good point what you guys just mentioned which is like there's there is like that differentiation between like the two apps.

And I think like different people would would use different ones depending on like where where they are in their stage of life. >> Yeah, it reminds me a bit of just to bring everything full circle before we get to our lightning round. Brian Balfour who led growth at HubSpot and then founded Reforge and has been one of my biggest mentors as a growth professional has this framework that he calls the four fifths. And so you have product market fit, you have product channel fit, you have product model fit, and all of these things have to fit together in a very coherent way.

And so to connect some of the dots that we've been talking about over the course of this episode. I mean obviously the first and most important is product market fit. You just need a product that very much appeals to your target audience. And in your case you check that box, right? Because you have this simpler faster to use product that appeals to a younger audience that maybe isn't as focused on perfect accuracy because they just want to know what they're putting into their body and it's not always about needing to lose a ton of weight.

There is product channel fit, which is in your case you need a product that's simple enough that it can fit into a 10-second TikTok video, but it turns out that that simpler product experience is also better for your target demographic. So there's product market fit and product channel fit through this simpler more streamlined product. And then there's product model fit, which is you have a price point that is significantly lower than everyone else you're competing with, $30 a year, $10 a month, whereas I think some of the incumbents are in the 80 to $120 a year range. So, you're you're significantly lower price, which again appeals to a younger demographic that doesn't need as many of these power features, just wants to know what the calories and macros are for the food they're eating, but wants to pay for it at a lower price because they don't have as much disposable income.

And so, when you put all those four things together, product, market, channel, and model, you just have this product offering that fits all four of those really nicely, and I think that's a huge part of why the company was able to get to 50 million plus in ARR in just 2 years, which as you said at the beginning is one one of the fastest growing consumer AI companies to date. Uh so, congratulations on on all the company's success and the role you've played in it over the last year. It's it's such a great story and one that I I'm sure other consumer app enthusiasts will be studying for for a long time.

Let's transition to the lightning round. I'm just going to ask a series of rapid-fire questions. Would love to get your quick responses to them. And the first one I'll ask is one I like to ask in every episode, and that's what's the best part about working at Calorie AI, and and what's one thing you would change? >> The team says it a lot, but I think just how focusing on speed and like how quickly we ship new things. And so, like there'll be times where we'll have an idea and like we'll ship it like the the next day or same day.

>> Mhm. >> So, that's it's pretty cool to see. And then, I think like something that's happening more now that we're part of MyFitnessPal is like having more structure in the way that we work. And so, it it's really cool to like learn more from them like how they like structure as like a a larger team. And so, I think that's something that we're trying to learn more about. >> Yeah. Well, the reason I like to ask this question, oftentimes I'll get an answer like, I just love the people, or I love the mission. And those are great answers.

But what I'm looking for in an in an ideal answer is something about the company's values or approach that really sets it apart. I'm a big believer that the best values are controversial and they set your company apart in a way that really distinguishes it from its competitors. And one of the things that's really defined Calorie AI that we've talked about throughout the episode is speed and simplicity. So, it doesn't surprise me at all that speed is a huge part of your culture and something that you really put at the top of the food chain in terms of what's important to be a good employee and and a good contributor to to the product culture.

Um next question is what's one principle that you learned as a designer that you now apply as a product leader, especially with a product like Calorie AI that needs to be so simple and elegant? >> Yeah, I mean, I think this is like the this like the easy answer, but I think like just the value of simplicity. So, when we try and come up with new features, being able to explain it very like simply and concisely, >> Mhm.

>> similar to like how you're able to explain like just take a picture and see the calories and macros. Like I think if there's there's this book by like Tony Fadell. He like where he I think he won one of the topics he mentions in that book. He's like the one of the inventors of the iPod. And like he talks about how like this like the press release method where um before working on new features, you should be able to like explain the feature in just like the title and for that to be enough in order to get people to want to download it or like to use that feature.

And so, I think that's like a good way of like thinking of like like building like what what new features you work on next is like is it easily explainable in like a press release? >> Yep. >> Or or on a news headline and like whether that like actually gets people excited about it. >> Yeah, I like that a lot. I think Amazon was also famous for that where Jeff Bezos instilled this culture of as you start to work on a new product or feature, write the press release of what you want to say about it and it it better be concise, and it better be something that really resonates with your target customer. And then recently, I can't attribute that this to anyone in particular, but I've heard people talking about how it's it's now it's like start with the tweet or the TikTok video, cuz that's the modern-day equivalent for a lot of target customers, especially younger Gen Z customers, is like are you going to be

able to easily explain this in a 10-second TikTok video, which is exactly where you guys started when you designed your product in the first place. >> You know who also says that? Is um Mr. Beast. Like he's like the biggest YouTuber. And he says uh they they start off with coming up with the thumbnail and title before creating the video. >> Huh. >> Which is kind of unique. It's like a similar similar concept. >> Yeah. It really does flip the if you build it, they will come mantra on its head. It's like start with distribution and what's going to win in the channel, and then work backwards to the product that will perform really well through your channel choice.

Outside of Call AI, what other AI apps or just consumer apps more broadly, do you think do the best job of growing through UGC? >> There there was one app that I saw recently. It's like a language learning app, like an AI language learning app called uh Pingo AI. >> Uh-huh. >> I I just came across them on uh on TikTok, but I had noticed they were running this similar video across like so many creators. Like it was basically a a person, like the creator's like crying in the video, and they're saying like they're having such a difficult time um like learning this language.

>> Uh-huh. >> But like all these videos like they get like over a million likes and like what was it? 10 10s of millions of uh of views. >> Uh-huh. >> And they they've just repeatedly done that exact same hook across so many different videos. And there's like dozens of these videos that are they're basically the exact same, and they're just copying it. >> Well, it's fascinating though, cuz it's almost the opposite of how you described Call AI's playbook, which was minimum prescriptiveness and just like let the creator run as long as they're showing the product and showing it quickly. And so it just goes to show like there's no one right answer.

There's certainly plenty of wrong ways to do UGC, but different techniques can work for different companies. What's one food you would not want to log on Calia because you don't want to know the the answer? >> Probably a Thanksgiving dinner. I I saw that the Calia team actually launched a like Thanksgiving promotion where it was like they would give people free access to the app because um people just like sharing what they ate for Thanksgiving. Like I I know like during Thanksgiving I I see like a lot of like Instagram stories of people like sharing what they ate.

But it is going to be like a ton of calories, right? Like thousands of calories all on one plate. So it it's kind of interesting, but >> Yeah, that's a great one and I I didn't expect such a sophisticated answer, but it's it's cool that it dovetails with one of these really clever tactics that you all used to just get even more brand awareness and that is like okay, like EdTech companies will do this during finals. It's like we're going to discount the product or we're going to do some sort of campaign for finals week. In your case, Thanksgiving is like the big moment where that really you know, the product is just such a great fit and so I love that story.

Okay, well last one before we wrap up here. What's one way you think AI will revolutionize user acquisition over the next few years? >> Something I've seen on social media like only in the last like couple months is there's basically like these like faceless um social media pages like on Instagram and on TikTok where um people are posting AI-generated videos and it's kind of hard to tell that they're AI-generated some of them, but the entire page like from top to bottom is all AI-generated.

But there's a bunch of them that are getting like a lot of views. Like they're consistently getting the type of views that Cali I would look for if they're going to hire an influencer. And so there's that. I could see a lot of um like companies working with these creators that are like posting these videos even though there's like no influencer behind it. I've also seen some founders working on like creating paid ads themselves with um this video generator Cedents.

So people are like generating paid ads with that. I haven't seen like that one really working yet. But I guess like the overall message of this like if you can get like consistent views and consistently get attention, then I think that's where all of the like consumer apps as well as like all businesses and e-commerce are going to like they're going to approach these people who own these pages and ask whether they can help promote their app or their product. And so it doesn't really matter if it's a person or an AI behind it. I think it's going to be if you can get attention, I guess that's the that's the end goal.

>> Yeah, it makes sense. And I I've heard a lot of companies that are using AI in the form of tools like Suno and Eleven Labs and BO3 just to create more AI generated content, but it sounds like you're talking about tools that even take that a little bit of a step further and it's going to be interesting to see how it all plays out. Especially cuz there's also this tension where some customers are really against AI content or AI ads and they don't want to be marketed to through AI, but it's becoming harder and harder to tell the difference. And so I think you're going to see that line blur more and more over the coming years. Uh well, thank you. This was a real pleasure, Daniel. I appreciate you coming on the podcast. Any parting words for the audience before we wrap up here?

>> No, no. This this was fun. Appreciate it. >> Yeah, thanks for coming on. >> Thanks. Awesome. >> Thanks again to RevenueCat for sponsoring this episode. If you're building a subscription app, you can use RevenueCat to power purchases, optimize paywalls, offer discounts, handle refunds, manage customer data, run A/B tests, generate insights, and unlock more revenue. I work with dozens of subscription apps and most of them are already using RevenueCat to power their businesses. Learn more at revenuecat.com/subversion.