Chad Mureta's App Marketing Strategy (App Empire)

What is up App Nation, Chad Maretta, the man, the myth, the legend is here. We're here to talk about like just to catch up. What's working in the app stores today? So Chad, what's up man? What's up brother? Hey, I'm excited to connect and have this conversation. It's been a long, long time coming. I know, I feel like I'm talking to a celebrity. The guy who wrote the book on everything related to apps, like so many people have been inspired, have used your methods to build their own app empires. The chat.

I kind of want to start off with this man and then you, you talked about it in your book back in 2012 about studying the app stores, looking at the one to two star reviews, kind of like improving upon an already existing successful app and making it your own. Has that philosophy, has that strategy change today in 2020. Uh, 2020 today. I mean, emulation is still a huge piece of it, right? I mean, obviously we're dealing with some crazy times right now, but like anything in business.

And especially when I first started, it's like right now, that definitely is the key is emulating. It's very different than like five years ago or four years ago, and I was like skinning and just like copying. And so there is a different level of like business, right? You can't just copy something and expect that it's going to do well. But a lot of things that I, that I taught and I teach. Are basically going back to the fundamentals of apps.

So understanding the marketplace and really understanding, you know, the monetization model and the demographic. And so, you know, I think like right now, we talked about this a little bit before, but for me, I've done better now than I ever have an apps. And it's because I am unwilling to waiver from what I know that works back when I first started back in 2009 so that's the good news. That's crazy, man. To hear it from you is pretty phenomenal because I thought it's getting harder and harder, but to hear you say that you've been more successful these days, what are you kind of focusing on?

What do you attribute to that success. Yeah. And, and, and just to address that. So there are things that have definitely become harder, right? We know ASO's tricks, like some stuff that we used to do does not work. So it's not like I'm just throwing out an app and I'm like, okay, I hope that it works. So I just wanted to clear that up because things have definitely dried up. But that happens in business, right? So if we're entrepreneurs and we're resourceful and we're seeing up the field and rescuing the right questions, then we're meeting it the right way.

And so. You know, things have changed. And so what I'm doing is I'm really focusing on, you know, after the fact, after the download, how do I get engagement going? How do I get more time inside the app so I could actually have the algorithm work for me? And so it is basic business, but again, in the app store, when we're firing so much in the front end, we weren't really worried about the backend as much. So.Well, all the stuff that I do now is, is really like, obviously I want to do conversion up front and get the person in there, but then I really want to listen to like the data, like what does the data telling me right now and how do I increase the time in the app?

How do I increase the use? Obviously we know that if somebody is downloading the app and they're spending more time and they're playing with it every day. Then that's going to be in your favor. And so being obsessed with that part of the game a little bit more than the front end part of the game. It's been something that I've, I've really focused on. And there are definitely are still tricks and hacks and things that you can do to monetize and to also get, you know, your end. ratings and stuff like that on the front But things have changed.

And I think the biggest piece is that it's a real business and a real business. You know, they understand their user, they understand and their cost to acquire the user. They understand how long they stay in the app, they understand their longterm value, right? Their lifetime value of the actual app. So it's just getting really particular about those things and letting all sort of, most of the hacks, like go to the waistline.

I like it. I like it. Now, what I loved about your book was you talk about the macro right case study. They app stores to figure out what's working, and then you also talk about the micro, like the tactical things that we can all do in terms of studying the one star and two star reviews. So when you said like, how do I keep people engaged? So give me, give me the micro tips, like how can we keep people engaged with our app?

Is it just the idea itself or are there. Tricks that you're using to keep them engaged? I mean, I think more importantly that the meta is building something of value, right? Um, the, some of the tips out side of the building value piece. And you know, for me, I get super obsessed, you know, I'm a product guy and so I get super obsessed with like looking at all my competitors. What are they doing? Analyzing what's working, what's not working.

And then, you know, really, when I break that down, each app, each silo I like to call it is really, it's very specific. So, you know, one app might be different than others, like, you know, coding book app. Well, we want to give them a lot more options. We want to give them a lot more products inside of that where it's fun. Maybe there's a timer that it's, you know, counting down to give this urgency and you, you spike the dopamine.

I mean, a lot of incredible developers and app preneurs. Are you using dopamine and looking at the brain chemical and saying, how can I spike that? How can I get somebody so it's not this boring thing, but it keeps it fresh. It keeps it relevant. And so, you know, that is one piece of, you know, each one is a little bit different. And then inside of that difference, it's really just trying new things. And I know that's probably not what you want to hear.

You want to hear like one magic bullet, but, um, it's really trying a bunch of things. I update my apps typically every five to seven days. And I'll use certain things like in the beginning, I want to make sure that I get my, my ratings up. And so I typically won't monetize in the beginning because I want to front load all my ratings. And these are things that you probably already do and know of, but just some of the basics is I want to do that on a front load.

My ratings, I want to get things up there. I want to make sure that, you know, my call to action at the beginning. After they do something of value is to rate. And then once I have a certain amount of time and have a certain amount of ratings up there, then I'll go ahead and I'll then monetize. And so, you know, just waiting a little bit and stacking that up there helps a lot. I get, you know, a lot more, uh, the algorithm favor.

Um, and so, you know, that's, that's one piece. Obviously there's a lot of others, like. You know, looking at the time involved. And so there's certain things that you can do to increase the time. Some are tutorials. Uh, some are little games inside of the app, which I've done in the past. Uh, even with like emoji and stuff like that where we put a game in front and on the back end, you know, we had obviously an upsell, but what did it do to increase the time?

Increased engagement inquiry. Is dopamine levels. And so, you know, you really, at this point, you have that one shot when you get somebody, because they're downloading so many apps. And so you really have to be very specifically what you're trying and you have to understand it. So it's not a one size fits all. It's sort of, is this, this kind of constant machine that you're testing and seeing what works? And. You know, connecting with other people and seeing what works as well.

And that's why every day I spend typically about half an hour to an hour in the store just playing with apps to get some of the other data that I'm trying to mind from the store. Oh, I love that man. All right. I'm sure if people are wondering like, all right, how long do you, what do I, I love the front loading idea. How long do I wait until I say, okay, I'm ready. Let's push the engines. Let's make some money off of this.

It depends on the app, right? It depends on how many downloads you get up front. Like there is. I'm definitely leaning in, like there is definitely some ASO and focusing on, you know, your icon and the title and getting that first video is important. But you know, you don't really no off the bat unless you have traffic sources already pushing traffic, which you know, I do in some areas where I can leverage existing traffic and push it or you know, obviously running search ads or Facebook ads.

So there's a system there where I, you know, I definitely pushed traffic in the beginning. And then from there, depending on how many ratings I get. So it could be a month, it could be a month. I wait, could be two months, could be two weeks. If I'm getting, you know, 10 20,000 downloads a day. Then it might stack up quickly and I can see, okay, what I'm doing is working and I want to leverage that and I want to monetize it faster.

But if I'm not getting that, then I don't go too early. You know what I mean? Because it is more of a process and I want to really make sure that, you know, I've got my ratings in place, I have my monetization in place, but I really understand what's going on with the user. And if I don't understand that I don't have the traffic sources, then I wait and I try to optimize until I do. I love that man. And from an analytic standpoint, what are you kind of paying attention doing that early days?

Is it just the lifetime value? Is it the retention, you know, what are some numbers that you're really focused on? Yeah, good question. So it is, it definitely is the retention, and it is lifetime value. Like I have my guesses because I do a lot of, you know, apps that are too, too far from data that I already have. So I have so much of a baseline. But, um, yeah, it's really just like figuring out what I have. And so, you know, and especially with like advertising, because sometimes you get downloads and they're actually not your customer, right?

They're not the person that you want. And that skews your data. So in the first like 30 days, depending on how you're doing it, you're really just acquiring data to make better decisions. And so I really, for me, I leverage that. I'm just mentally like, okay, I'm in it for 30 days to get as much data as I can, and then I try to optimize. Uh, but typically it's like, I try to get them in there as much as possible, but I really try to give them as much value as possible.

So, you know, say one is a, um, like I said, the coloring book app or one is a photo, a video app, you know, just sold one of those companies for seven figures. Like. That is really critical to how can I give them value within the first minute? Or they are gonna edit a video. Are they going to see a filter that they like? Are they going to have music and a theme? And so, cause if you wait too long, you lose them. So it's typically like how do I as quickly as possible, give them value where they're just like, aha, triggers go open mean.

And then at that moment I give them something either rating or monetization. Pretty easy, right. But I don't know. I don't know what exactly works. I, I model others that work and then I tweak from there. So, um, you know, sometimes also it's like, you know, people stay in it because they're waiting for their value, right? So if you can get them to, you know, you, it's like almost like breadcrumbs. If you like leading breadcrumbs and sometimes you break it apart and you get them to like step closer and then buoy Ashok them on there, they have it and they have their value.

Dopamine hex, and then you hit him with the trigger. And so, you know, everyone's a little bit different, but I love the breadcrumb scenario because. You know, you're stacking value and you're breaking it apart and you see this in games. It's like you make it really easy and level one a little bit hard on level two. And so you, you hit that like resistance point. And I think this is where a lot of people, they miss it in apps, you know, like there is a science, yes.

But there's also this art that you have to really understand the users sort of resistant. And I talk about brain chemicals and dopamine and oxytocin and stuff like that. But if you're not aware. Of where it is. It's almost like flow, enough resistance, but also enough is so, you know, basically they're in this tunnel vision of the app until they get to the value point. The value prop, and again, every app is different depending on social, if they're sharing or if they're engaging.

But it's really important to understand those basics for you to actually build a platform that you can leverage. I love it, man. Are there specific categories that you're focused on these days? You talked about the coloring book. You took out about photo and videos. What other categories are on top of mine? Yeah, so I've almost always gone for utilitarian on some aspects. I have, I have, I've tried. Games have been successful somewhat, but I feel like games, you really have to be a gamer and understand it.

And since that's not my. My full deal. I've been into like, okay, what can I build a, again, it goes back to my book that'll be around in 10 years. And so when I look at those categories, the photos, the video, some of the music stuff, it's like, what is somebody going to download a weather app? Cause I can keep updating that as things change, as new technology changes. But I really want to own a segment, own a niche, and I want to know that 10 years from now, like you know gold, it's going to be, it's going to have some value.

And so. Um, I don't have one particular category that I do stick to utilitarian and I do stick this stuff new year round. So for example, it's like I have a tornado and there's tornadoes going everywhere. It's like people jump in like there's a storm, and so people are doing these like hurricane trackers. In the beginning, it wasn't really working because it was such a small market. Now it's big, so storms and stuff like that are a big market, but I don't really want to go in and just hit it surface level.

I really want to own an area. And I want to do something that, you know, like I said, five, 10 years from now, I can look back and say, Oh yeah, there's still a market for that. I love photo video. I love editing. I love music. Music is a big one for me cause it's niche. I don't think a lot of people are looking at that. And some of these simple ones too that are still around, I think are really, really important. You know, some of the PDFs scanners are second phone lines and stuff like that that, you know, are hard enough to make.

But when you make it and you'd have it, it's valuable enough where you just have to tweak things. Enough, the keywords are your screenshots, your icon, and you know that the market is big enough for you to do penetration. And for me it's like I know I'm good enough with marketing on that side that eventually it might take me a couple of tweaks, but eventually I'll open up that dam and I'll just let it come to me and I'll, and I'll make sure to, to capitalize on that traffic.

And I think that's my key for success, is really knowing that once I invest the time and the energy in something, I become obsessed. I eventually will crack the code and I'll get it and I'll leverage it. Yeah. I love your obsession. I have a client, a friend of mine who's done a robot call or an app like kind of like global killer. He's done pretty well, like for an indie guy who's kind of doing it all on the side. He's doing making pretty good money, and so I'm like, wow, this a great subscription base too.

That's the key. So that's what, for me, it's like a, when subscription came alive like a few years ago, it was like, Oh, it was the best thing that I've ever like experienced in my, my business career is now you have all these people paying. And then you know, you can pay for ads, right? You know how to leverage that. And so that's why right now know a lot of people are like, are apps still a good investment? Can I still make money?

And especially now with everything going on in the world and everybody at home, it's like, wow, this is the best opportunity that that could be out there. Honestly, I really believe that. And you know, I own eCommerce businesses and I am challenged with those right now. Inventory challenges. You know, things very complicated in that physical product, business world where in the digital side of things. Man, it's on fire.

It's so different. There's nothing else like the app business, there's just nothing else. And so when subscription came along, you know, I'm having recurring passive money knowing that I just have to get into a little bit of a point where I can get the data and then I can get ads going or something else going. That popped off for me, a whole nother level of success in this business, and that's why I've tripled, quadrupled 10 X.

My success in the past is because. I can count on that revenue, you know, and buyers are looking to buy that revenue because it's more probable, right? It's more consistent. Or in the past it was like, eh, this could dry off. And now they're like, okay, so many of are paying 50 you know, 50 bucks a year. Some of are paying 10 bucks a month. So when you're paying five bucks a week, whatever it is, you have these customers.

Hang. And you can see the attrition. So from mathematical standpoint, a buyer can look at it and know how much it costs to get a user, know how long are you users stays, and then they can see how much money they have in the existing user base and when they're going to fall off. So they can easily invest in a business like this and then acquire new users. And so it gives them a whole nother level of confidence. And that's what allows you to get another layer of like another zero on a company that you normally wouldn't.

Be able to do until subscriptions came in. So subscriptions have been complete fire. It's been amazing. Yeah. I know you probably love systems and so Chad, I'm asking you this like from a systems perspective, when you have this app idea, you want to front load it, is there a GoTo growth strategy when you're like, all right, let me just get a bunch of users, get those reviews going? Is Facebook still the end all be all for you?

That's your starting point from a growth channel. Um, I would say yes and no. I mean, yes, on some levels, but I do have existing, like I did this way back and 2010, uh, wow. 10 years ago. That's insane. Um, yeah. Basically I would take, uh, my existing Habs and I would just push. Traffic, right? So I could get some of these, these freemium apps that weren't really monetizing, but they collect a lot of downloads and I could push traffic.

And so I still have some of those assets that I can push traffic to. Uh, and then, yeah, I leveraged church ads and I, and I leveraged Facebook, you know, for sure. Facebook for me, I'm just really starting to invest heavily in that. Believe it or not, up until probably like six months ago, I did zero like outside ads, zero, all organic interest. So now I'm just like, I can see the levels of scaling that I was sort of leveling off.

So it's a new game for me. But yeah, at a a media buyer that's really, really good. And yeah. So, yeah, have really focused on, you know, making sure that when I launched now I've got kind of a multitude of approaches where I had my own traffic. I really feel confident about the assets that have created from a conversion standpoint. I know I'm going to get ratings and I'm going to make sure I hit the algorithm a certain way.

And then yes, leveraging Facebook and making sure that. You know, you'd give Facebook. All the data is powerful because Facebook will then, as you know, optimize for you there. So Facebook definitely needs to be part of the equation. I think. Um, there's other traffic sources, but I still like Facebook and I feel like that's not going to go anywhere. Are you doing anything on Google play at all? Not really. Not really.

I've, I've done some partnerships with some people on Google play, but you know, my thing has always been iOS. And, um, I always look at my return on investment in anything and my time in Google play versus iOS just isn't worth it. Um, at some point it might be, but I mean, you know, for me, I've got my whole VR system. Like I'm, I'm in VR now, so if you could always see my, my war desk right now, it's pretty wild. But, um, you know, so for me, I look at VR and I'm like, ah, I'd rather do VR then than jumping into Google.

Um, because, I love, I can see where Facebook is going with Oculus and everything else. And so that to me is just a bigger pot. And I'm at the beginning stages where I can leverage the tools and stuff that I've learned in the app business. And that's a cool thing. And anybody watching this that's in the app business and I feel like you are, you know, like, I reached out to you recently cause I'm like, I love your content.

And you stuck with it. And you know, you are one of the leaders and it's really good to see the depth that you go. And the good thing about all this information that you teach and that you help and that you consult with, uh, is that people can leverage that information and they've learned those tools and they can apply it. To VR and AR because I'm always looking up the fields. And so if I'm looking up the field a few years from now, five years from now, like I want to make sure that, you know, I came in and the apps for 2009 right in the beginning.

So I'm also positioning myself in VR for that as well. And it's amazing how much easier it is because I already have the fundamentals down, right? And so that's, that's where I choose to invest my time because it just is going to pay me for a longterm. It's very inspiring. And you see when we've got to talk, I was like, it's very inspiring to see, cause I thought I heard a lot of different projects that you were working on, so I thought you had move on from was very inspiring for me to see like this is the guy who first started at all in my eye and then to see you still doing it.

Cause you know, we, we know the people that have come, come and go. Like Carter is not really doing much. Trey is still doing stuff, but like, you know those names that. These were the names that I looked up to when I first started, and now to see you still going at it like it's very inspiring to me. Heck yeah. Heck yeah. I love it. It's better now than ever, so. Well, I hope we can continue doing this. Like I don't know if there's anything else you want to talk on.

The other thing I want to talk about is you've been very successful selling businesses and so maybe on another recording we could talk more in depth about that, but I don't know if there's anything else that you want to talk about for this first session. Yeah, no, I would love that to another call. It sounds great and yeah, I always build a company to sell it. And we told you before, my eighth million dollar company just sold.

And I love it. So it's, it's amazing to crate the solid off and there, there's a whole process and we will definitely go into that. yeah. I'm curious from your perspective, the way like. You know, what do you see that a lot of people don't? So you have this agency, you work with a lot of people, you know, you see obviously Facebook, you see where the market's going and so, and a lot of mines have dried up and so people are like, Oh, what do I do?

And you know, I think you were surprised that I'm doing so well. And I'm curious what your wisdom tells you about the next few years of like where the app store is going and what somebody can really, from an 80 20 standpoint, focused on in order to get success because you have a unique, I think, perspective that a lot of people don't because you're just in so many different pots of apps. Well, I'll answer a couple of ways, and I think something that you've done really well is, and I think I really suck at this, is when there's something new, like don't be afraid to jump in.

Don't be afraid to be the first one, because if it does take off, you're going to be the first one and you're going to really ride that wave. And if it doesn't take off, then heck, you know, you can move on to this. And I think when you look at abs, I think people try to complicate it. And you've done a really good job of simplifying it, right? Because I've got friends who are making like . 80 like these are like million dollar businesses with the most simplest, the crappiest UIs ever, right?

Like you wouldn't imagine, I'm like, how are you making $80,000 a month with this crappy app? And so it is really about simplifying it, utilizing what you talked about, the subscription piece of things, and just having like, here's this app. The utility aspect of it is there. Here's an app that I'm going to be using maybe five, 10 years down the road, and it's so simple to use that it solves one primary problem. I love that.

I love that. Yeah. It's so true. Yeah. That's so true. Yeah, it makes sense. That cuts through the weeds, so I love that. The lands, that is what I've been doing and like it's easy to, to complicate things. You know? So it's like, man, so easy as a creator, as someone that loves creating to like make an extra screen or make it an extra button, or I want to add another benefit when it's like, eh, they're buying it for this one benefit.

Just nailed that. You just nailed that. You're going to get them to download, they're going to be happy. And so I see that a lot and I've even seen that in myself where, because I like creating so much and I want to just now. The value. I overcomplicate it. And typically those are the assets don't do incredibly well. So I think that's a really, really good point. And there are people who have gone through your course and you see these apps, and I'm like, no way.

Nobody would use this. You'd be surprised at how much they're making. And I think, you know, the one thing that a lot of people are starting to thinking about too, is thinking about apps as a traffic generator and then utilizing it for like affiliate programs or other things. I have a friend, you know, given the times, it's not so appropriate now, but he's at, he has a travel app, he's got millions of downloads, and he uses that to sell.

Tours and guides and that's how he's been able to really like double his revenues, his top line revenues. Cause now he's selling instead of content within the app, he's selling guides. So there's that affiliate model that I think if we think about apps as a traffic, Jenner and top of the funnel, are there other ways to monetize outside of the app store too? Yeah. No, I love that. I love that because yeah, conceptually it makes sense, but a lot of people, I heard a lot of stories of people doing things like that, but there's so many opportunities out there to, to have a back end or to connect a product or service.

And I'm curious if you've seen and what you've seen sort of in the marketplace of influencer marketing because everyone now is an influencer marketing. Everyone has a list. And so are you seeing people leverage that in your experience to get. Somebody that has a 50,000 following promote an app and a, because you know, I've, I haven't really dived into that fully. And obviously there's a lot of models out there that, you know, you can, even, if you jump in and do a, a deal with anybody that has a large following, you can give them a piece of the pie and they'll promote it every few weeks.

Right. Why not? You know, you saw this a little bit with emoji on. Kardashians, um, and some of the other influencers that came out there afterwards. I'm curious if you've seen any of that of work. Do you think that's a good strategy for people? Because that is a big traffic source that I feel like people are trying to leverage with other physical products. But you don't see too many with that. Yeah, I do think so. Like I'll, I'll, deer is one way, and I wouldn't recommend this way just because I like the way you think too.

Like is this going to be around. 10 years from now, but people create stickers, apps with like smaller influencers and they were able to make a few grand, 10 grand, 20 grand just off of one influencer and them showing it, and it was a paid app, right? So it was $2 up front and you get that, but it's a one time hit and you're going to get that spike and then slowly trickles down. I think from an influencer marketing perspective, it's a great growth channel and focusing on the micro influencers, that's what I've read, what we've used, and that's what most people have said.

Works really well. So anywhere from, I would say like 10 to maybe even 50 to a hundred thousand, that sweet spot, because they're still not big enough where they're going to overprice themselves, but they're small enough where they've got high engagement and they're not going to be as expensive as some of these bigger influencers. So I do think that it is still a growth channel. And I know kind of like what we talked about, like people when it was musically before it was.

You know, tick talk. Usually influencers were doing really well for gamers, so don't be afraid to jump on board when you see a new influencer marketing like, or I'm sorry, a new social media platform pop out and be dirty. Often ones on there, jump on board. You know, that might be now musically take talk influencers harder. Right. More expensive. But early on it was a great channel for gamers. Yeah, no, I love that. I love that.

Yeah, I definitely have been. Firing a while ago and tick-tock first came out because, you know, it was young. They had no idea what was going on. It was very different prices in Instagram. I'm like, sure, I'll promote it for 20 bucks. And you know, and it didn't work. And so, you know, but things change. And so it is this like constant mentality it seems like, of how can I fire and continuing to be resourceful to know like, okay, this isn't returning the same.

Dollar amount or benefited now and now maybe turning a little bit. I think that's what I see a lot of people miss. It's like this is the business side of things where you, you have to continue to tweak. You have to continue to look at your playbook. You can't just, I mean, you could set it and forget it actually have, and I have people that launched apps like six years ago and are doing like 20 or 30,000 a month, haven't updated it at all.

It likes there and they're like, what do I do? I'm scared. Updated Apple might take it off the store. And so there are those posts, those crazy stories. But if you want to keep it as a real business and maximize the value. You know, you really do have to look at it as this engine that you're going to have to maintain and tweak and become better and better at it because traffic dries up, channels dry up, algorithms changed.

Um, so I'm curious on that algorithm piece for you, what do you see changing in the future? You know, Apple, at this point, you've done a bunch of features. Seeing sort of, you've checked under the hood. Uh, so I'm curious what you, if you see that as like a, a strong, uh, value prop for people to get eyeballs and traffic and Apple involved and where you see that going for the future. So the, the Apple features itself are primarily, or just, yeah, Apple features or, yeah, different promos and stuff like that.

You know, even even third party companies. Yeah. I mean, I think what I'm seeing, especially from the ASO side, is keyword optimization, while still fundamentally important, hasn't been a huge driver of growth anymore because there are little tricks and yeah. Tactics that we used to do where it was like, boom, I can get you to like number two and on a certain keyword, high traffic keyword. And I think Apple is starting to catch on to some of those tricks that we've been utilizing.

And so it hasn't been as powerful, still extremely powerful. But I think what you said is so true. Getting that upfront traffic, figuring out what that traffic source and treating lit like a business. I think too many times, maybe because of the content I've shared and some of the . The other content that other people share. We got into much of like the tricks and the tactics and not at a macro level thinking about as a business like, Hey, how many users?

What's the LTV? What's the retention? Instead of just like, Oh, let's just spam a bunch of different keywords and let's just re skin a bunch of different apps and let's just really flood the app stores with these apps, and I think it's now you have to really think about it from a business perspective. Let's not just make a. Really thinking about that way and then using, having a machine like you reference where you know where the traffic's coming from, you know how what's going to happen to these users and how much money you're gonna generate.

Because if you're looking to sell this business, then that's what buyers want to see to aid. You have this predictable machine where that just sort of prints revenue, right? Like you're not going to be relying on ASO because that thing's going to change. 100% you're going to lose your rankings. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it is this, like I see people that it's great to answer. So I see people like the artist piece, and I have that cap.

Sometimes I'll put it on the artist piece and I'm like, I love creating, and I'll sit there and I'll be paying and doing my thing, creating the star. And then when I have to get into the logical piece where it's like, okay, there's certain certain data points I need to look at and certain things that you know, at times that becomes boring. So I'm like, ah, it takes energy away, but you really need both parts and I think you need to feed yourself and then you have to wear the business hat.

And put the artist's hat, you know, on the shelf for a second and really know what you have and know that it doesn't mean you're going to wear it all the time, but you have to be very analytical in this business if you want to grow and scale and know what you have. And so this early on for me is something that I had challenged him. Luckily for me, I didn't really have a choice because I was in a situation where I had to make it work.

And then I partnered with my business partners was super analytical and so my like artistry and then his analytical gave us a sort of this perfect storm so we could continue to rep. Okay, thanks. And now I have obviously an amazing baseline and systems in place, but um, yeah, it's interesting to hear you say that, cause I, I definitely know where people, you know, lose their energy and I know it usually that gives them energy and people love creating stuff.

You know, to have an app that you can literally like from your brain and you get in the store. I mean, that is the most unbelievable feeling. And uh, you know, it's just incredible to, to be, I'd be like, now I'm even more like excited about this store because I see how, how much my energetic and how do all these other companies and digital products versus physical products. And, and I'm just like, there's nothing else like this.

There's nothing else like it. And especially now with like. The budget's out there and the data that we're getting and you know, Facebook working for you, like to be able to really scale that. You know, there's a bunch of companies like you, you probably know I, and we'll probably talk about this a little bit in our next call from selling a business, but man, they're going around just strategically picking off, uh, companies that they know are not doing ads.

There's so many Indies that have apps in the store that aren't leveraging at all. But the big guys know. And so see, they see these opportunities cause to create something is an opportunity. Costs, right? Something that you're buying that's existing, it's easier to tweak something times. And so, you know, I've been really been following their model and also seeing these sort of second tier apps that you can really scale or the people are just leaving it.

And I think there's so much in the app store right now and, uh, you know, if anybody gets anything from this on me, it's like get excited because. This is well, at times I've, I've re sort of dedicated myself to, uh, on a whole nother level. And, um, you know, I'm just really excited. I'm excited that we get to connect and, and kind of, you know, geek out about it because it is such a fun space. And, I think there's just so much room for creation and growth and really adding value to people.

Yeah. So true. And I had a friend who bought an app, it was like a second tier, built it up, and now he's like totally transformed at like 10 X revenues. And he's just not now, like potentially seeking investors and like really growing this thing. And it was just a simple idea and few tweaks, like you said. Onboarding experience can of really analyzing what the user wants. So tweaking that onboarding experience, teaching them a little quick little videos the app, and now boom, it's really taken about how to really get the best out of off.

I think when you were doing this and this, you just wanted to really show off your guns. Right? I think that's what it was. Yeah. I know. I'm actually, I'm a, I'm not a Talon, but I talk like an Italian, so I'm always using my commands and weird sounds. So part of the show, it's part of the free experience. I love it, man. Well, I don't know. I don't have anything else to cover. I thought this was a great first session.

Again, we need to get digging deep on the second session. Maybe hopefully do this every month, every week. Whatever. We can do it. Let's keep doing it. Yeah.