Mastering onboarding | Lauryn Isford (Head of Growth at Airtable)

an activation rate that falls in a lower percentage range maybe for most companies 5 to 15 percent is better than one that falls in a higher percentage range because it means that there's likely much higher correlation with long-term retention and you're really working hard to get most of your users to reach a state that they're not reaching today welcome to Lenny's podcast where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to help you get better at the craft of building and growing products today my guest is Lauren isford Lauren was most recently head of growth at airtable before that she was a product growth lead at Facebook working on usergrowthinternet.org and growth of Facebook in India before that interestingly she led growth for blue bottle's e-commerce business in a conversation we dive deep into Lauren's favorite topic onboarding why it's one of the biggest and most undervalued

growth levels which he's learned about optimizing onboarding clothes through her work redoing air tables onboarding flow what she's seen work and common pitfalls around onboarding plus a ton of advice around figuring out your activation metric I could talk all day with Lauren about growth but we had to cut this off to keep this to a reasonable length enjoy my conversation with Lauren isford after a short word from our wonderful sponsors this episode is brought to you by public.com we want to tell you about their new treasury accounts which earn a 4.8 yield on your cash that is higher than a high yield savings account while still being backed by the full faith and credit of the US government treasure yields are at a 15-year high but buying U.S treasuries is super complicated if you go to a bank or navigate an ancient Government website or at least that was the case now you can move your cash into

U.S treasury with the flexibility of a bank account you can access your cash whenever you want even before your treasury bills hit maturity there are no hold periods no settlement days just a safe place to park your cash and earn a reliable yield public will automatically reinvest your treasury bills at maturity so you don't have to do anything to continue growing your yield and you can manage your treasuries alongside stocks ETFs crypto and any alternative assets do all your investing in one place and earn 4.8 percent a higher yield than a high yield savings account only with a treasury account at public.com Lenny today's episode is brought to you by Nero an online visual whiteboard that's designed specifically for teams like yours and mine I have a quick request head on over to my board at miro.com Lenny and let me know which guests you'd love for me to have on in 2023 and while you're on the mirror board feel free to

play around with the tool it's a great shared space to work closely with your colleagues to capture ideas get feedback and iterate quickly and easily on anything you're working on for example in Miro you could build out your product strategy by brainstorming with sticky notes comments live reaction the voting tool even an estimation app to scope out your team Sprints your whole distributed team can come together around wireframe and draw ideas with the pen tool or even put mocks right into the mirror board and with one of miro's ready-made template you can go from Discovery and research to your product roadmap to customer Journey flows final mocks you get the picture head on over to nero.com Lenny to leave your suggestions that's miro.com Lenny Lauren welcome to the podcast thank you I'm so excited to be here we've chatted a bunch over slacks like all these different slacks we're in and Twitter

and emails but we've never actually chatted real time and so I have a million questions that I want to ask you so thank you again for being here we have never chatted real time so everybody's getting the first conversation and I'm really looking

forward to it I know that you have this pretty spicy contrarian take on experimentation and that I think you believe people run experiments too often and maybe not everything should be an experiment can you talk about that yes so experimentation is a really big part growth culture growth hacking culture plg culture gross marketing culture any kind of growth uh at least in in my sphere and sometimes teams can be really really dependent on experimentation when trying to grow a business a great example of this would be consumer growth at scale think your classic big social company I worked at one of them I am a former employee of meta back when it was called Facebook and when you're at scale trying to grow a social app experimenting can feel second nature can feel like a necessary step in your product development process that you want to drive more signups or you want to drive better activation with

new customers so you change some buttons change a design and a B test it and then see if numbers go up or down and then make your ship decision based on that I find that there's generally two reasons why a growth team wants to experiment and one of them is to understand more precisely the metric impact of what they're building and what they're putting in front of customers and the other is risk mitigation where you're making so many big dramatic changes that there's some risk that while this could be really great for the business it could also be really bad and it would be good to understand that before everybody's experiencing that in production so with that framework in mind sometimes you don't need to experiment sometimes if the business you know if let's say activation right activation rates go up six percent versus seven percent that Precision actually doesn't help all that much Beyond being able to

say in your performance review hey I increased activation by seven percent so it also is expensive to have folks on the ground be it Engineers analysts product managers spending time understanding the results of an experiment that could otherwise be spent on road mapping on foundational analysis on shipping things so experiments can be expensive so with all that said generally my advice is to experiment when you need to and to primarily see it as a risk mitigation tactic when you're making dramatic changes and to let the product development process do more work so spend more time with customers be more rigorous in understanding precisely what problem you're solving get mocks in front of people and see how they react and hopefully have more conviction than you otherwise would when you ship something that it's okay if every customer sees it tomorrow and that the experiment doesn't actually matter

as much

it's so interesting hearing that from ahead of growth person working at Airbnb for a long time and you talked about this there's so much value put into like the amount your experiment moves the metric is so important to be like you said your performance review your team's status your team's ability to show they were successful right like people look at like you drove this metric 14 which oftentimes you add up from experiments you ran how do you like work in a culture like that or is it just in that culture you just you may as well run experiments because that's the only way you get credit for the work you do or is there a way to just be like wow like that is how we measured but it's still maybe not worth running everything as an experiment how do you kind of find that balance it feels to me like that is the default culture especially as growth teams become organizations and as those organizations grow with companies into

growth stage public company territory and Beyond however I do think you can build a different culture and the only way to escape the Trap of experimenting everything is to have a very intentional culture about doing right by customers and doing the right thing for the business a growth team or growth org exists in service of improving the business and delivering results for the business and whether or not you measure those precisely in an A B test you still shipped them or you didn't so the rigor around your process was either there or it wasn't this means though that there have to be other ways to motivate reward retain and develop really good talent so a culture around the impact you had on customers as measured by qualitative feedback or as measured by deals that were closed or deals that weren't lost or other kinds of indicators that you did the right thing for customers is important and

there shouldn't be especially in engineering within the world of growth a culture around having to point to numbers to demonstrate your impact because if there is then the team will biased experiments all the time and that's not necessarily the right thing for the business it's a very expensive cost wow it's so wild hearing this from again ahead of growth someone that's so analytical like you is there an example

of some you launched that maybe most people would have read an experiment and you decided not to for one of these reasons there is a feature a product really that airtable offers called airtable forms it's possible you've used it I'm not sure if you have but I don't think so but I will go check it out you can check it out there are some new features I'm about to tell you about so maybe that will entice you there we go scoops so airtable forms is much like other forms products you can create a form and then send it to anybody to submit the people who submit your form don't need to be a user of airtable oh yeah I have used that okay it's just like the turn in their table into form yes exactly okay so something we noticed is that there was a gap in feature parity for airtable forums where the submitter could not request a copy of their submission so I might send my t-shirt size to Lenny for a form around ordering swag for the

company and then I might want to remember which T-shirt size that I ordered and get a copy of that in my email we created that feature which as a result was gated on creating an account with airtable and we just turned it on and wanted to see what would happen because we knew from rigor of a wonderful product team doing robust customer analysis and also doing the data work that this is something that people wanted that it was a feature that would bring value to customers and that even if it didn't move certain metrics like a sign up percentage even if it might affect the mixed shift of activation rate from folks who signed up it would be net good for customers who were using forms and who are submitting them so we did roll that one out without an A B test it did have a big enough impact on our sign up metrics that we saw at Top Line and didn't need the A B test to see what was happening and we

also were able to use attribution to make some analysis possible after we rolled it out so we could learn from what was happening to the base afterward fascinating that's a really good example and I imagine it helps a lot when the head of growth is encouraging the team not to run as an experiment versus like you know pm on a sub team like nah we didn't need to run this as an experiment because in that case you're already acknowledging team you did a great job look at this metric clearly this one moved clearly customers want it so to your point basically this kind of stuff has to come top down probably for it to work well I think it does and it also cannot be an excuse for rigor around building well and being precise in what customers need but overall if you can be a results oriented organization that just wants to do the right thing and move with urgency then in my opinion that's the way that you can have the

most impact cool okay I didn't expect to spend that much time on that question but there's so much there that was really

interesting would I want to spend the bulk of our time on is onboarding something that I found myself and I think you agree with a lot of this but I'll confirm is that I've done a lot of research into the growth stories of the most successful startups and what I find one is that retention ends up being the thing you gotta crack if you can't crack retention Nothing Else Matters and then two more interestingly onboarding ends up being one of the biggest levers to increasing retention which basically a then b equals c onboarding ends up being one of the biggest areas of opportunity for growth teams both early on and late stage and so I guess the first question would you agree with that General sentiment that onboarding is this huge opportunity and often undervalued yes I definitely agree it depends of course on the shape of business not every business should prioritize onboarding first but if you have some

sort of self-serve element of your product if someone can give your product a try maybe you have a playground or a Sandbox demo if there's a premium element to your pricing scheme if you maybe offer things totally for free and don't even have monetization yet onboarding is that first really important choke point that from which Downstream of onboarding so many important metrics and results flow for the business from converting someone to a paid customer to closing a deal to you know growing how many people in an organization or using your product so all of that really comes back to onboarding if you can get that right lots of good things will follow okay great I'm glad we agree I already know

this but you spent a lot of time on air tables onboarding flow yes and so I'm curious to just to learn about what did you do over the time that you spent optimizing your tables onboarding experience what kind of impact did you see through the work that you did there and then just any big kind of General takeaways that either you think people should know or that you'll take with you to Future opportunities around optimizing an onboarding experience we could talk about onboarding all day this is my favorite things to chat about recently so we did have a wonderful activation team rebuild airtables onboarding flow over the past 12 to 18 months this included many projects including several big ones so what you've probably experienced if you signed up for airtable recently or what you might experience if you create a new account soon is we built an immersive wizard that we called guided onboarding

that helped guide you through setting up your first workflow on airtable and in doing that reduced the cognitive load of getting started helped you make more progress faster and created scaffolding that more than 90 percent of customers would benefit from to be able to get up and running on a product that's pretty complicated that was the first piece we also then introduced some personalization to use case on top of that so instead of helping you build something generic having you build some something that's relevant to you and then we also worked on ongoing education so once you're in a workflow once you've built something how do we help you level it up to go from beginner to intermediate to Advanced and one funny anecdote about this is that we actually called that project the mole m-o-l-e because the design pattern in product looks like a mole it pops up from the bottom of the screen and gives

you tips as you're exploring so go through some of the biggest changes we've made we did retire a bunch of our tool tips which were a big part of onboarding for a really long time so happy to chat more about that and then also did a bunch of more incremental optimizations as well in general tried to take a portfolio approach to to what we did cool okay a few questions real quick so there's what were the three buckets real quick so personalization on ongoing education was the first one the first one was guided onboarding guided onboarding what was the impact of this work just to give people a sense of kind of the kind of impact you can have on conversion and whatever other metrics you looked at there we were working on activation for a few years before I arrived at airtable there was already an awesome activation team hard at work overall the Investments we made in onboarding over about a six to eight month period that

included the wizard the mole with ongoing education and also some personalization together drove a 20 lift and activation rate for airtable wow that sounds quite impactful especially at a company that scale it's awesome I would say celebrate any clear statistical significant Improvement in activation rate it's a big victory and credit goes to the team that really spent many many hours with customers and designing precisely to build something that could have that big of an impact I think it speaks to the importance of really understanding what a user needs to be onboarded well which is not the same as what your business wants the user to be onboarded to so delineating those and building carefully is really what made it successful

which of these three buckets would you say had the biggest impact because I want to kind of get a couple levels deeper to get to like what exactly did you do that worked really well I would say that the guided onboarding wizard which is the immersive wizard that helps you figure out how to get started was the most impactful thing we did and it's interesting that you had tool tips and this feels like a toolt AP thing what is it conceptually what's the simple way to think about the onboarding wizard versus a bunch of tool tips telling you like hey Lauren click here next go here and then check this thing out totally imagine being in a step-by-step guide where you are asked question for example pick which kind of project you're working on pick what kinds of things you'd like to track for this project and then as you select from beautiful easy to click buttons that require very little work on your

part something is visualized for you on the right half of the screen so you can see your workflow visually come to light as you do the work on the left half of the screen and all of this is done for you in a very guided and instructive way

are there any generalized learnings from that experience of just how to do a great onboarding experience sounds like probably avoid tool tips instead just kind of ask questions and show them progress as they're going through it in kind of like an immersive experience versus here's the product check out all the cool features I think there is something to be said for reducing Reliance on tooltips but I'm not sure I would go so far as to say the tooltip is dead as much as I maybe would like to because there are too many of them out there the reason for this is that I do believe airtables customers had a very specific need which was that the effort required to build basic scaffolding was too much and they needed more support guard rails bumpers to help them through that and this kind of guided or immersive wizard was the best mechanism we could come up with to reduce that effort required and to make

it them feel more supported in their Journey I'm not sure that this pattern is one that works for every product I think it's one that works well for a complicated product where figuring out where to go next and how to get started is actually very challenging or has a high cognitive load so I would keep that in mind but in this case it did work really well for us I have seen some other products in the wild adopt similar patterns which gives me confidence that it is transferable Beyond airtable and that there's probably something to it that's definitely a big learning and then you know I think one other big learning for us was that we had to meet users where they are we have some awesome Advanced features of really cool stuff you can do with airtable automations being a great example however users don't necessarily need to get that started on day one they don't need to learn about the advanced stuff when they

haven't even looked at a workflow before so we really worked hard to prioritize what the user actually needed and to consider what was necessary education versus what could be ongoing education and building it up

can you talk a bit more about what that was like what did you actually do to understand kind of the type of user and then what did you change for them because we actually did something like this at Airbnb and it was tiny bit successful one for host onboarding but it wasn't anything big and I'm so I'm curious what it is you specifically did you ask him a few questions and then group them in a group and then change the way the rest of the flow went or yeah what'd you do there good question so at the very very beginning we sort of said new users broadly need help with who are they what do we know about them how can we help them and we spoke to a bunch of customers and also watched them get started and looked for patterns in behavior and also clusters so someone who is familiar with databases somewhat Technical and prefers to and has experience in building things might have a different need from onboarding than

someone who is exploring a tool that was recommended to them for project minute and with that in mind there were some clear segments of personas or buckets of users that we could split out to give different experiences now that said when we rolled out the guided onboarding wizard it was actually just one generic onboarding that was one size fits all and while Escape patches are great we felt like we could solve as I think I referenced earlier more than 90 percent of of use cases our users needs with one generic onboarding to start and then we could personalize from there when we started to personalize generally we found bucketing customers by their learning style and their building style was more effective than more classic segmentation like do you work in marketing do you work in product management do you work in operation the reason for this is that there are many different types of building or workflows that are

possible in airtable some are sophisticated for use at work some are simple for use at work some are somewhere in between and are for a hobby use case or a Consulting use case and knowing how someone would go about building was more effective than what do you actually want to see on the other side this means that something like a template which can give you an example of how to build a use case for project management can be helpful for inspiration but might not actually be the best way to teach you how to use a product like airtable when instead we could learn that you're someone who needs more familiarity with databases and to be able to get to the next level or you might need a more visual learning experience instead of a more data forward learning experience so we tried to segment the experience that way and found that that yielded better results on activation than some of the more traditional segments and how did you

decide which segment that user was in was it a question you asked them right at the beginning we had a really awesome research team that would do some surveys and conversations with customers away from our production experience and away from Individual projects so we had a really robust read going in to the project of who these different personas were different building types different learning types that said we do also ask folks when they sign up some questions and depending on who you are or what we might think we know about you or want to know about you we might ask you different questions and that's in service of helping you get started I had some big ideas for how we might you know bring this to life even further that might come to life in the future such as if somebody's there to just help out if there may be a teammate rather than a builder if they're just there to work with someone else because they you know

Lenny invited Lauren to work on airtable because he needs Lauren to do something or update a Sprint whatever Laura needs really different onboarding than learning so actually getting that data and the flow is really useful because then we can route customers to a fully different experience and it's amazing how much low-hanging fruit there is to personalize and segment that onboarding experience in so many products that are out there you just need to be really detail-oriented and precise on who

you're working with you talked about this experience as activation and so just digging it a little bit further into that idea one of the important kind of metrics Milestones you got to figure out when you're working on boarding is what is an activated user What's the activation Milestone What's the activation metric I know you have some strong opinions and some really interesting insights into activation Milestones based on your experience at your table can you chat a bit about that and just share what airtables activation metric ended up being yes so overall every growth team needs a North star metric it's so important to have singular focus on what the business results are that you are working to drive in your team on our activation team which as I mentioned focused on onboarding though in theory there could be other ways that you want to focus on driving activation we had one Northstar metric which was

what we called our team activation metric so this representative a team of people were activated on airtables product and using it in a way that suggested they would be long-term retained and for us that was week four multi-user meaning in the fourth week more than one person on that team is active and contributing to a workflow on airtable this metric is something that our wonderful analytics team determined to be highly correlated with long-term retention it's also a metric that holds a relatively High bar so it requires a number of things to be true that something of substance has been built that people persist and continue to collaborate that they're collaborating on a weekly Cadence and also holds a relatively High bar on exactly how they're contributing meaning that the sum total of this is somewhat hard to achieve which means that we have a hard job and also a high bar as an activation team to achieve that for as

many customers as possible in general I think an activation rate that falls in a lower percentage range maybe for most companies 5 to 15 percent is better than one that falls in a higher percentage range because it means that there's likely much higher correlation with long-term retention and you're really working hard to get most of your users to reach a state that they're not reaching today I really like that heuristic so the idea there is when you're picking an activation metric you want it to be like in the single digits potentially because you're saying that's more likely to be correlated with retention because retention is probably pretty low long term is that kind of the rough idea that's a rough idea of course the metric should be correlated with retention no matter what but if 40 of your customers are still you know active at week four maybe with a metric that would be week four

active rate then only a fraction of those are still going to be active in month 12 and month 18 and month 24 and I would much prefer to pick a more specific more precise metric that may be only five percent of users reach but know that those five percent of users will be with us for the Long Haul and if we could get that five percent even to six percent or seven percent it would have huge Downstream effects on long-term metrics for the business so that's why I would opt for a more specific metric okay so this

activation metric week four multi-user active is really interesting metric can you talk a bit about how you actually operationalize this and put this to work on your team to how people understand what to work on and make sure they're moving the right sorts of numbers totally so one of the first things that we did when me and my team started to revisit week four multi-user active right before we started to rebuild on board in is break that metric down into all of its component so if you really think about what goes into that number how many teams sign up as a team versus an as an individual how many of them make it to week four how many of them have more than two people invited versus more than two people who've ever been active versus more than two people who were active in the fourth week maybe they have one person active in the fourth week and then what does active mean and what are the different kinds of behaviors that

constitute contribution or being active doing that really detailed work on the metric helped us understand what levers we could pull to have a really big impact on activation overall additionally we actually started using more metrics so we didn't just use our activation rate metric week 4 multi-user Active to make all of our decisions we introduced a few more and one of them was purely a retention metric for an individual are you weak to retained are you weak four or tint the other was what we called build with capital B and this was roughly a sophistication score so for someone who's building something have they reached sort of intermediate levels of use of airtable the reason why we added these metrics is we were building new mechanisms for onboarding that were helping users build more effectively and find more value in airtable but sometimes those treatments helped users become more sophisticated

but didn't help them invite more teammate or sometimes those new mechanisms made someone more interested in giving this a shot for a few more weeks but what they built was actually not any more impressive than if they had done it on their own so this group of metrics actually really set us free it gave us those constraints where we could actually measure success in a few different ways and think about activation as being more complicated than just a single metric and celebrate anything we could do to help on a couple of Dimensions so I know it's a little unconventional to have a few metrics that you work with but we did find that that was really helpful when we were making big changes that is actually really interesting so it makes it feel like the core activation metric you talked about is more of an output metric and you kind of realize here's the things we could actually be moving directly is that

roughly how you thought about it exactly it also helped us grapple with some of the tensions we felt which I know a lot of teams working on activation and onboarding cl which is picking one metric doesn't paint the whole picture of what you're trying to achieve when you help a user onboard to your product and when you educate them about what's possible so in having sophistication and retention and an element of Team use all as part of the fabric of how we talked about activation it made us much more well-rounded as a team

that connects a bit too so we worked on this post together about how to choose an activation metric and you shared part of this story for that post and there's a little bit of a debate amongst folks that contributed their opinion on how to decide on activation metric where it's a debate between is it okay to have like a workspace activation metric where it's like how many boards somebody creates how many air table tables somebody has created versus like a user action like user has created 10 tables or user using it two times a week and I think you're on the side of like workspace is maybe a more interesting metric for a collaboration tool and it's interesting that you end up with both in the end which I think is kind of where folks landed like you probably look at how's the company using this tool and then like per user are they using it consistently so I guess the question is just what's your take on user specific

activation metric versus workspace level activation metric I really like this question I agree it is a great debate I'm not sure there's a clear answer because it does depend on your product in the case of airtable which is a product that has seat based pricing and generally horizontal adoption it totally makes sense to have a workspace activation metric because you want to understand in an account in an organization how many folks are actually using a product and finding value that can be different for tools that might look like airtable but have different mechanisms for growth or different pricing or different vertical personas that tend to adopt it so I do think there is some variance I do have a reaction to share with you that's a little spicy please is that it's important that growth teams are agile and this means that North Stars key metrics Focus metrics will change and if you're working on the same metric

forever there's probably some inefficiency in actually chasing the biggest impact for the business so I would be open-minded about if a workspace or team or account activation metric is always the right thing to focus on team activation looks really healthy because your growth team did some really amazing work on it maybe user retention is the right place to focus next year maybe it's more about conversion maybe it's more about some other signal for long-term retention and I would be open to being Dynamic and changing that metric over time stability and Metric is great it helps with momentum it helps with building expertise but sometimes we over focus on picking the perfect North Star metric and by the time you feel like you've found the perfect one it's actually time to move on to something different and work on a different opportunity this episode is brought to you by EPO EPO is a Next Generation a b testing

platform built by Airbnb alums for modern growth teams companies like netlify contentful and Cameo rely on Apple to power their experiments wherever you work running experiments is increasingly essential but there are no commercial tools that integrate with a modern grow team stack this leads to wasted time building internal tools we're trying to run your experiments through a clunky marketing tool when I was at Airbnb one of the things that I loved about our experimentation platform was being able to easily slice results by device by country and by user stage EPO does all that and more delivering results quickly avoiding annoying prolonged analytic cycles and helping you easily get to the root cause of any issue you discover Apple lets you go beyond basic click-through metrics and instead use your North Star metrics like activation retention subscriptions and payments nfo supports tests on the front

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is there an example of that that comes to mind when you talk about being a little stuck on a metric is that something you went through at our table or anywhere else worked I've gone through it plenty of times we actually at the organizational level on the irritable growth award changed our North Star metric a couple times which is a big deal that you know manifests for several teams roughly the Arc of that change for us was shifting from being a growth org focused on Revenue to a grocery focused on user growth and customer growth and this for us was a really important moment where we decided that it was most essential in our work to grow the business to bring Millions more people onto the platform using the product and finding value in the product because we were taking a decades-long view that they could always become monetized or converted customers later and there wasn't really a rush we felt that

focusing on Revenue led us to make some decisions that were a bit more short-term oriented than would be ideal there's also a dynamic here where in the world of Enterprise SAS the world of B2B SAS there's a new theme called Product LED sales that's very hot right now and this means that often in a plg company there's some ideal end goal of handing off certain customers to have a sales conversation or to close an Enterprise contract in that case you might actually prefer to delay revenue for months or quarters or years to manifest it later and when that's the case your growth team should be fully aligned in lockstep with sales and with go to market team focusing on user growth is actually the right call so that's an example of a big pivot that we made and in doing that we felt more strategic Clarity and were able to move faster that is an awesome

story how long did that process take and any advice for folks that might be going through a similar journey of like maybe we should rethink our North Star metric on not be Revenue any advice there in general I would say having stability in North Star metric for at least six months feels like table Stakes to me and that's for the reasons that I cited before for building momentum for building domain expertise and also for compounding impact in areas where you see success where you notice growth flywheels that you can optimize however if you're reaching a point where that Northstar metric feels like it's old news maybe you're outgrowing it maybe you want to work on different things I think that's great be open-minded about changing it up I would generally try to start with the mechanics of the business and what you think you might be able to drive in terms of metric impact with the resources you have on your

growth team that can look different for every growth team because some of them have marketing some are more product and Engineering some are kind of a mix of both or even something different than that so I would start with what impact do we think we could have where do we think the biggest opportunity is to Chase and you can literally draw funnel on a whiteboard and map it out and brainstorm together do some analysis on the side and when you see what opportunity feels like the most important thing to chase try to build a Northstar metric that reflects the output of that work rather than drives all of your decision making from the beginning a Northstar metric should really be a measure of if what you plan to do the strategy you plan to deliver is delivering results for the business on the other side rather than the other way around

so you mentioned trials and free me at one point and I want to spend a little time on this and I know you also have some strong opinions about this kind of debate another debate people have it's all these debates and growth uh between offering a trial or offering a freemium product self-serve and I think your perspective is you should do both and I think maybe you call it a reverse trial because I was doing some research so I guess is that true is that how you see the world and then just generally why do you believe that that is the right approach what is it about all these growth people with their strong opinions so I guess I have so many of them you're educating me on my own perspectives today freemium and free trial so to get on the same page with definitions for all of our wonderful listeners a free trial is when you can use the product for free for a limited time and then your only option beyond that limited time is to

pay for use of the product freemium would be when there are multiple options for how to use the product and one of those options is an infinitely free version of the product so you can use airtable for free forever or you can pay some amount and have access to premium features so with all that in mind personally I'm in the camp of offering a reverse trial funky name but what that means is offer a trial but also offer freemium do both and the reason why I like this is you get an opportunity when somebody shows up and says hey I'm going to give your product a try today to show them everything that's possible onboarding is a huge component of that help somebody get started have those aha moments and experience initial value but also this is your moment to Showcase everything that can be done with your really cool product and you have some limited number of days maybe 7 Days 14 days 30 days to Showcase all of the cool

things that your company is building for your customers that is the beauty of a free trial it's not just that someone can try your product without paying it's that they can try even more of the product all of the premium amazing Advanced offerings that could be possible if they decide they want to settle on a Premium plan when you are deciding if this is something you want to do I would actually take a big step back from looking at competitive pricing pages and getting into the details and reading blogs and just think about what your philosophy is as a business on monetizing customers the reason for this is generally the reason to offer a free plan or a free trial but really a free plan the freemium type of pricing model is if you value letting Millions tens of millions of customers give your product a try even if they never pay you a dollar that shows to me prioritization and value of user graph brand awareness and

exposure of your product more than just Revenue and if that's the case a freemium pricing structure can be really great for your product and give you the space to see if your product can become that household name that everybody is familiar with and can give a try and get some early value and even experience some aha moments on top of that you can offer a free trial to show what's possible with premium value and then that really can just be focused space for you to say hey look what's possible if you pay us five dollars a month ten dollars a month and you might even get some extra conversion out of that and some more paid customers so in general that's how I think about it I like the reverse trial because user growth is important and if you're in a long game where you're trying to grow a business for a decade or more ideally you're trying to get millions of people onto your product and you can always

have that monetization conversation later but you only get a couple moments where you can say hey pull out your credit card or let's get on the phone and talk about an Enterprise contract with a customer before you lose trust or lose patience and so that focus on helping them discover value and build loyalty to you is much more important I really like this concept a super cool name too I'm also thinking back to some of the SAS tools I've used that have had this where I go straight into the Pro Plan and then I'm like oh I don't want to lose all these features and then I actually end up buying it so when I'm hearing this it's it sounds to me like it's a better version of the freemium approach I imagine there's still many SAS tools that are very enterprisey take hand-holding maybe this goes away I know uh Elena Vernon who's been on the podcast is just like a huge proponent of everyone will be product

LED self-serve eventually but until that day they're still like I don't know I think of um retool I think is very like Hands-On hand-holdy front I think is

like that there's all these tools that are people don't get really well quickly and so I guess do you still think there's a need for some of these tools that need sales and customer success involvement to stick with just trial at least for now or do you think they should all for kind of find a way to get to self-serve and reverse trap I do really agree with what Elena said I really look forward to the day when self-serving freemium are possible for every product but I also recognize that that can be really expensive to build and Implement and is not for everyone so that's cool too there are other options in general I think freemium and also free trials tend to be most effective when there's something that the person who signed up can actually do on their own without being handheld it doesn't have to be full functionality it can be exploring a Sandbox or a demo or something they can poke around in and

you know experience values see that aha moment that's great that's a moment where you can give value to that person who's chosen to spend time with your product if that's not possible there aren't different ways to be creative that don't require having premium pricing you can think about how to use concepts related to plg and related to top of funnel adoption in different ways so maybe you can create custom landing pages or experiences that help showcase value without a full sign up or free plan or free trial experience maybe you give folks the ability to sign up and while they've sort of signed up as an interested customer they're not fully experiencing things they might not even have the option to pay for something yet but they can learn there's some resources there's some education for them to experience or maybe you can think about top of funnel adoption or traffic as being most helpful for extension within customers

you already so if you sign contracts with a couple really large Fortune 500 companies and somebody wants to join and signs up on your website from the same email domain then you can provide an experience for them that might feel like it helps them learn the mechanics that's actually only available to folks who are part of organizations that already have contracts with you it's a different way of thinking about plg and not necessarily something you would offer for free you know they're already an Enterprise customer but some of those Concepts can still have a lot of value and help you grow the footprint of an account in an organization and those are definitely awesome things to try if you can't offer something to self-serve so what I'm hearing is find ways to make things some component of itself serve so that you don't need to necessarily talk to someone immediately they can start to understand some element of it on a maybe

an interactive landing page or some very simple part of the product exactly I think the key is to figure out what it would be like for someone to experience value when there's no human sitting next to them and that value doesn't have to be full functionality of the product awesome

coming back to onboarding and this is my last onboarding question I have another topic I wanted to touch on do you have any just general pieces of advice either probably this will work if you're working on onboarding slash things that probably won't work and are common traps that people fall into when they're trying to optimize onboarding activation flows in general I do see a very common trap that I would love to caution against which is that employees of a company build onboarding for customers but they build what they think customers want rather than what customers actually want and that manifests in an onboarding experience that's not very helpful so there are two patterns that I typically see one is naming features so imagine you're using air table for the first time and you see a tool tip and it says this is automations and it explains what automations is to you that's not that useful for a user who

doesn't really know what's going on yet because they aren't sure automations are relevant to them if they're suited to their use case what exactly the word automation entails we've named a feature but it's really sort of an announcement of something awesome that airtable built rather than an application that can help educate the user on how they'll receive more value from that feature so try not to name features it can be very tempting in practice even though it sounds easy in

theory before you move on what have you learned about how to actually name things in such a way people understand is there some of you you do there ooh naming things in a way people understand versus the feature name like you just said so instead of that I think what would be more useful given the constraints of using a tooltip that's pushing someone to try an automation would be to explain how the automation is relevant to them or even better to enable a one-touch turn-on of the automation feature or set up an automation to complete your workflow where we actually do some of the work and if you click into here we will show you what value is possible and help you get it to the finish line so really focusing on that contextual application or helping to drive towards an outcome rather than just educating on a name and there's like an element of smart defaulting just like starting to do it for them versus do you want this

or not exactly there's also an element here of segmentation or personalization where you should be sensible about if everybody needs to know what an automation is or if they're only certain folks who actually need to learn about it and others might not need to know

awesome all right bacteria your other suggestions oh yes there is one other suggestion which is if you're working on a SAS product especially a freemium product there's probably some pricing in packaging scheme that explains which features are available for free which features are not how many you get and sort of maps out usage of the product both for free users if you offer a free plan and then for premium users if you offer premium plans I find sometimes teams working on onboarding will map onboarding to that pricing or Packaging so for example maybe automations to use the same example of the same feature is something that's generally premium that if somebody uses automations they're more likely to be a paying customer it can be tempting then for an onboarding team to try to push automations to people when they're getting started because of course we'd prefer if customers use premium features because then they might

be more likely to become premium customers but that is not in the best interest of educating a user on how to get started so I do think it's very important to be careful that you are rooted in the customer need and rooted in helping that customer achieve maximum value rather than sitting in the priors of what your packaging scheme might suggest or what might be in the best interest of the company as a growth leader how do you

operationalize that is it sets and drag metrics is it just philosophically let's make sure we're optimizing the right metric what's worked to actually avoid that problem I think Northstar metrics help because a team can be singularly focused on the most important result for their roadmap in their Charter however guard rail metrics are equally important so an onboarding team that builds amazing onboarding that causes a 10 drop in Revenue would need some sort of guardrail to make sure that they knew that that might not be the right trade for the business and importantly should have the rigor and passion to go deep and understand what caused that drop in revenue and figure out what it was about that onboarding that ultimately caused a guardrail metric to suffer so with that in mind I think guardrail metrics can be very useful and are important to Choose Wisely I love working with strong analytics Partners

on a growth team because rigor and education around how to think about guard rail metrics is something that we should always be thinking about whether you are a data analyst in functional specialty or a PM or an engineer or a designer so that's how I kind of like to think about it I do think guardrail metrics help and then just being well reasoned and thinking about what's best for the business and speaking about your work as being what's best for the business and the customer overall rather than being too narrow in your own swim Lanes of what you work on great advice I want to move shift to a different topic and this will be much shorter you

have this really cool framework for thinking about the plg funnel product like growth and interestingly kind of trickles down to the team you build metrics you choose and things like that so can you just briefly talk about just this framework they use to think about plg growth in the plg funnel when I think about how to grow with plg in a business that has some element of plg self-server freemium I usually start with a funnel that roughly maps to the same scaffolding regardless of business whether I've worked on the business whether I'm supporting the business as an advisor I love starting with this framework the first step is join the second is evaluate the third is upgrade and the fourth is expand this funnel represents the Journey of a customer in a plg product as they advance and develop in their lifetime of using the product it starts with becoming a part of the account that's using the product or

signing up and you might join because you found air table on Twitter or you might join because Lenny invited you to use airtable so there are different ways that you can join that product in the first place then importantly you evaluate if it's right for you and that word choice of evaluate is deliberately not on board or activate because it's about what the user needs to see that they are going to get the value that they want in using your product and building a habit around it next is upgrade ideally someone has gone from beginner to intermediate or even advanced in their ongoing education and in getting to know your product over some amount of time and they see premium value and raise their hand and say I will convert to it now if you offer self-serve premium plans that's awesome they can do it with a credit card right in the product sometimes this means raising their hand to talk to sales and

that's great too but they upgrade to some sort of Premium experience or to more value than what they had when they got started and finally expand in vertical says this can be nuanced but with more horizontal tools ideally a few folks maybe one maybe a few are using a tool in an organization and then many more adopt it over time and that expansion drives net dollar retention it drives brand awareness it drives more usage and more pockets of the company it is awesome for Renewal rates if you're working with Enterprise contracts and ultimately then also brings new referrals into the product that Loop all the way back to the beginning and joy I love it and what's cool about upgrading expansion kind of bake in retention you're not going to upgrade you're not going to expand if you're not

retained can you talk a little bit about how you use this framework like do you bucket you have these four teams on your growth team that focus on each of these stages is more of a conceptual framework do you come up with kpis for each of these steps how do you actually operationalize this concept I think this framework is a too abstract to represent exactly how you should structure your teams or to be represented with four metrics or kpis however it's a really good conceptual way of grounding your team or your organization in the mechanics of how the machine that is the business you work on run and from there it can become much easier to communicate with each other on where you see opportunity on specific pockets of the product that might be impactful so for example you might be working on a strategy related to landing pages and be able to name that that's going to help Drive joins in new organization and that's a really

awesome way to communicate why you might invest there versus investing in something related to onboarding that would help with evaluate so I love this framework because it helps everyone communicate clearly and also you can derive from it more specifically what are the opportunities that are relevant to us with this framework in mind and then revisit it over time to gut check if you feel like maybe what you're investing in now is a bit outdated and needs a refresh or if there are other pockets of the business that need more attention that you might

be able to work can you talk a bit about how you structured the growth team potentially based on this framework and just generally how you thought about building the grow team at irritate we had what I think is a pretty relevant set of of teams if you're thinking about building out a few in your own product or or organization that focuses on sort of a plg shape of business we had one team working on acquisition and they were really responsible for the join so they mapped actually really well to this funnel one team working on activation and they mapped pretty closely to evaluate it wasn't a full representation of what's possible in evaluate we were pretty focused on the self-serve business and that was different than for example helping an Enterprise customer evaluate the right offering for them but that activation team was most closely tied to that second step in the funnel and then we had a monetization team that worked on

monetization and pricing and they mapped really closely to the upgrade part of the funnel they did touch some other things as well so they worked on churn prevention and downgrades they worked on some billing related projects but in general they were most thematically aligned with that upgrade step of the funnel one area that is more emerging that's interesting is expand so when we got started on airtable growth we didn't have a team dedicated to that expand piece and it became increasingly interesting to us over time as we started to notice that larger companies were using the product this meant that there was a bigger opportunity than there had been before to really help Drive expansion and get more folks using the product in those accounts that's an area that emerged later that's a really good example of revisiting your priors and being resilient or agile in your org structure because it wasn't something we set out

to work on initially but it became a really clear opportunity later you

mentioned that airtable is thinking a little bit more about B2B growth versus just kind of b2c where I think it's been historically can you talk about that and just how are you how are you thinking about that B2B growth is an emerging space for growth practitioners and hobbyists like me because the Playbook hasn't been written the same way that B to C growth or consumer social growth has been it's a new space and there are quite a few companies that are really excited about exploring B2B growth and how to apply the DNA and the mechanics of a growth organization to more of that B2B motion or to working with more upmarket customers or Enterprise customers so it's very top of mind for me it's a active conversation in the growth Community especially in San Francisco and overall I'm really excited to see what we can do by applying this approach to Growing businesses to new types of businesses it will require some

differences in execution model so in B to C or in consumer social as two examples you can experiment at large volumes or you can make changes that impact thousands or millions of people pretty easily in B2B growths generally you're working with a much smaller set of customers and also the risk profile can be very different because smaller numbers of customers that represent larger percentages of your company's total revenue must be treated with absolute care as opposed to a world where you might have millions of folks coming through your product every day and small changes might not have as big of an impact in an Enterprise organization it's important to be very careful and rigorous and to prioritize that customer's needs all the time this means that rigor that customer conversations that beta testing that live prototypes and demos are significantly more important than that face time with the customer is

significantly more important than it is in b2c graph so we'll see what happens I'm really excited to see more folks who have given growth a try in b2c or in consumer spaces try applying it to B2B because it will become increasingly common in the

industry well with that we have reached our very exciting lightning round I've got six questions for you I'll go through it pretty fast are you ready I'm ready all right first question what are two or three books that you recommend most to other people right of a Lifetime by Bob Iger I give this to new reports on my team great book to read when you're thinking about your leadership style and Rocket Man really fun story I love a good story about ambition and achieving awesome things what's a favorite other podcast other than the one you're currently on I like Fifth and Mission which is a local San Francisco podcast on local politics favorite recent movie or TV show that you have watched that you've really enjoyed I really like the White Lotus season two White Lotus was very fun to watch I also on the movie front I'm in a habit of watching Best Picture nominees every year and last year there

were a couple movies I really enjoyed one of them was Belfast oh man that was an intense movie I watched that recently uh and also if we should turn this into a drinking game every time someone mentions White Lotus we drink uh it's it's an amazing show but it definitely comes up often so interesting comes up too much not like it deserves to come up often I love it that's true it's great but that'd be okay we're gonna do a drinking game from now on and I'll have a shot here love White Lotus favorite interview question that you like to ask people tell me about a time that you delivered something that was impactful um what do you look for in an answer when you ask that question what's kind of a good sign and what's maybe a bad sign I'm looking for someone to help me understand how they Define imp and what it means to them I think a good answer for growth practitioner is intrinsic motivation

about having an impact on the business you're here what are five SAS products that you use day to day and you can't say your table stigma Mira Slack Gmail and with this one I need to think about it it's because I cut out every table I got you I know I always say air table air table is definitely number five and probably number one okay final question what's speaking of your table what's the coolest use of airtable you've seen there was a great embedded view which is the internal term for when you put air table on your website in an embedded way so people can check out cool stuff related to finding coveted vaccine when they came out which was really awesome I also appreciated that a similar use of air table has become quite popular this year in support of facilitating folks who've been laid off to help them find new opportunities Lauren this was amazing I learned a ton we got through everything I was hoping

to get through which I did not expect two final questions where can folks find you online if they want to reach out and learn more and see what you're up to and then two how can listeners be useful to you you all can find me on Twitter I'm at Lauren isford I love hearing about how folks with all different kinds of cool products are thinking about growth in general I find all of us are better at growing businesses when we study the awesome wins and learnings of others so please my DMs are open send me cool things you're working on I'd love to learn about it amazing Lauren thank you let's go drive some growth all right so much for listening if you found valuable you can subscribe to the show on Apple podcast Spotify or your favorite podcast app also please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast you can find all past episodes or learn more about

the show at lennyspodcast.com see you in the next episode