How Headspace Expanded from Meditation App to Wellness Platform

It's really cool how Headspace started. So Headspace was one of the first apps in the app store. We were the first meditation app. We were founded by Andy Podkum. He actually left and became a monk and he learned so much during his time as a monk that he was like, I really wish I could share this with the world. And so when he came to LA and founded the app, that was his kind of remit was how do I bring more mindfulness to the world and make the world a happier place? Content and mindfulness is one of the many ways in which you can improve your mental health. But there's also this human delivered care aspect, right? Things like coaching and therapy and psychiatry. And that's when we ended up merging with Ginger, which started as a digital offering for coaching and therapy and has ever since expanded and and allowed us to also grow and shift and change. The way that I I see the future of EB is it being a navigator.

Our shared belief is that EB is not a replacement for therapists or psychiatrists. Those are licensed and regulated fields. There are bounds with which AB will play, but I think the the best opportunity that EB can serve us and as a business and our members is being able to intelligently help them navigate through what mental health care is. Welcome to Subversive, a podcast dedicated to sharing stories from the best consumer subscription apps in the world. We'll bring you lessons for how to grow your consumer subscription business, including insights and inflection points that led to exponential growth from leaders at category defining companies and innovative startups. Let's get into the show. My guest today is Corey Sheerer, a lead product manager at Headspace, where she has spent the last four years helping the company expand beyond meditation into a broader suite of services, including coaching, therapy,

and psychiatry. In this episode, I talked to Corey about Headspace's merger with Ginger.io IO in 2021, its expansion beyond consumers to employers with headsp space for work and its recent investments in artificial intelligence, including the launch of its AI companion product called EB in late 2024. All right, welcome Corey to the Subversive podcast. Super excited to have you here today, both because I'm a longtime user of Headspace. It's actually one of my favorite apps. And also because we briefly got to work together at Quizlet, uh where you were before Headspace. Um but enough on Quizlet. Let's focus on your time at Headspace and maybe to kick off would love to just hear a little bit more about you and your background and what you've been up to the last few years at Headspace. Yeah. Awesome. Well, I'm super excited to be here today with you, Phil. Um, and a pleasure to get to, I guess, connect and work together in a

different capacity now that we no longer work together at Quizlet, but yeah, over the last couple of years, actually four. I celebrated my four-year anniversary back in March at Headspace. Um, joined back in 2021. um have been there since working on the growth side of things. Started working on activation, then left for a little bit to another side of our business where I focused on thinking about how we build out what we call a kind of an outcomes vertical. So how do we see the actual output of all the work that members are doing when they work through Headspace, whether that's with our content or even now with our human delivered care. So everything from coaching to therapy to psychiatry. Um, and really making sure that all the products and and the modalities that we offer actually are have efficacy, have value. Um, and then more importantly being able to show that back to the members so that they feel some sense of

accomplishment and progress as they're using our our services as an app. Awesome. Well, I'm super excited for the discussion today. I know we're going to talk about the a number of the new products and services you've supported at Headspace. But before we get too deep into it, for those who don't know, and at this point I would imagine most people at least in the US know

Headspace, but can you tell us a little bit about what Headspace is, maybe where it began as a digital meditation app and then how it's evolved over the last many years? Yeah, so I mean for me it's it's it's really cool how Headspace started. So Headspace I mean was one of the first apps actually in the app store. We were the first meditation app. Uh we were founded by Andy Podkum. Um and he he actually left and became a monk. Um, and he learned so much during his time as a monk that he was like, I really wish I could share this with the world. Um, and so when he came to LA and um, founded the app, that was his kind of remit was how do I bring more mindfulness to the world and make the world a happier place um, through this mindfulness? And so, ever since then, you know, we've mostly, you know, been known as a meditation app, mostly focused on mindfulness content. But over the last course of

like the four years that I've been at Headspace, it's been really awesome to see it grow and shift and change and expand. And that was actually one of the reasons that brought me to Headspace is I had a hypothesis that in a very crowded market, as you see, there's many meditation apps today. Um, if Headspace were to survive uh and continue to grow and support the everchanging needs of its consumers, that we would have to start to think about other offerings, right? Content and mindfulness is one of the many ways in which you can improve your mental health. Um but there's also this human delivered care aspect right things like coaching and therapy and psychiatry and so my hypothesis and it it seemed true was that uh Headspace would invest in those areas and that's when we ended up merging with Ginger um which started as a digital offering for coaching and therapy um and has ever since expanded and and allowed us to

also grow and shift and change and think about what mindfulness needs. And so the the kind of like the love and and the brand that everyone has come to known of Headspace is still very much you know a part of it and and you feel that throughout all the different services we have today. Um but we really you know started with a meditation app and really have grown uh ever since into what uh we're now becoming as a mental health platform which for me is really exciting to see. Yeah, it's been an incredible journey and a very much needed product now more than ever given the, you know, mental health pandemic that's hitting uh the United States more so than most countries today. I remember it must have been 2010 when it was my parents and brother who first told me about Headspace back when the app store was really just first getting off the ground and they didn't use a lot of apps. So, the fact that they mentioned this

meditation app called Headspace told me something about how powerful it must be. One other question I wanted to ask before we get into our main topic for today is you joined Headspace, as you said, in 2021. So, you know, the pandemic had already been going for about a year, but what was it like joining a meditation and mindfulness product in the midst of a global pandemic like that? Yeah, I mean, for me, the pandemic or the start of the pandemic, I'll say, really gave me a lot of time to sit with myself. Mhm. Um, I think that's when I realized I was having my own mental health crisis and needed something like Headspace. And, you know, I'd committed to meditating and being more mindful and like finding that that time for myself. And in that process of starting to use Headspace and starting to think about like getting back into therapy and finding my own, you know, what world of like what wellness looked like for me, um, I was

like, "Wow." I kind of had this like same realization as Andy did when he even first started the app, which is how do I help more people? how do I, you know, bring what I've learned, you know, to surface for more people knowing like how much it improved my own mental health. And um so when, you know, someone who had already worked there reached out about an open opportunity, I, you know, jumped at the chance, you know, cuz I think again for me, it really helped me fulfill this this goal or this aim to really help support the mental health of others around me. Um, in a time where it felt like we were all so disconnected and I didn't really know what my role or what my part was. in a time where it felt like everyone was struggling for me to be able to join a company that it felt like really felt like a light in a time of darkness was really exciting um because I think like you you know and we've had these

conversations before we want to build products that really help people we want to build products that matter um and when you do that people see that intrinsically and it becomes a lot easier when you get into like the business mechanics of it right because you have a product that already has a lot of value so for me it was a really exciting time and opportunity and a time that felt really hard um you you know, emotionally and and otherwise. Yeah. No, I couldn't agree more. That was such a difficult time for so many of us and we happen to be working together at Quizlet during that time and so I know we had many conversations around how to just navigate the challenges of the pandemic and uh obviously at this point you've been at Headspace for 4 years and so it sounds like you had an amazing journey

there. Um we're going to start our main topic today with the merger of Headspace and Ginger.io in 2021 and so this was just shortly after you joined. I think it was maybe 6 months after you joined the company. Um, tell me what those first few months of the integration looked like with Ginger. Like what what went well? What maybe didn't go so well and what did you learn from it? Yeah, I mean I think it's it's it's one of the best things we have as a brand is our brand, right? I think it's very well loved. I think it's well known and I think that also makes it hard when you change things, right? then because people have come to know us as the meditation app. And I think even now we're we're still trying to figure out how do we move into this new future where we still, you know, have the the components of what was Headspace, but we're also trying to meet and create more access for new people that maybe

meditation isn't their gateway into Headspace. Maybe it's now coaching or therapy or psychiatry and that's how they know us. So, I think that was probably our biggest challenge of how we bring these like two really strong brands together and and make them one and then tell that story. And I I think in some ways it still is and will continue to be, right? Um, but I think that's that's also a really fun and exciting challenge is how you really paint the story of mental health being a lifelong journey. There might be a time and a place where, you know, mindfulness and meditation is what's helping you.

you know, there might be a time when you're in more crisis or severe need and you actually might need a therapist to to step in and to be a part of that equation. That was our biggest challenge is figuring out like how how we bring that all together. And um I'm really excited over the summer we're going to be making some really exciting announcements about how we're doing more of that and the storytelling around that. But I'm very much a green space PM. So thinking about all the opportunities that that was going to bring to really, you know, one personally grow, but also how we could really think about growing who we could serve and what that looked like was really exciting. So uh so yeah, I think for me it was a really exciting time to be at Headspace. Yeah. So let's talk more about that because I know having worked with you at Quizlet, you love growth PM work, but also what I would call expansion PM work, which is a

little bit of a different flavor. It's not optimizing conversion funnels. it's, you know, going 0ero to one with a new product or feature that builds on the existing product market fit of the core business. So, what sort of opportunities

did Ginder.io unlock for Headspace as a company? And then let's jump specifically into some of the early products or features or services that you and your team worked on. Yeah, great great question, Phil. Um, I think for me it it unlocked so much, right? There was a lot of folks who and you know even when I talk to my friends and my family who they're like that meditation stuff is like a little too woowoo for me. Um especially if you you never had meditated before it kind of feels like this like foreign entity or like what is that that's probably not going to work for me. And so it it felt like being able to say and we also offer coaching and therapy and psychiatry those are more traditional modalities that they're aware of and know about and maybe have used in the past. I would say there's still a lot of stigma obviously around receiving some of those services, but it felt like there there was like this

unlock because it was like now we have what we're calling like this like ability to offer something for everybody um and do that at scale and and again I think going back to that storytelling it's a much clearer idea to say hey you're going to come in you know work with a human who's a therapist who's licensed and you're we're able to work on XYZ things versus if you've never meditated before it's really hard to like articulate like what that actually is and like the value and the benefit of that. So I think again it unlocked a lot of ability to storytell for us. It unlocked kind of our ability to serve.

So, we had a lot of our members who at times would have experienced acute anxiety or depression and and you know, again, I think mindfulness there's a there's a role and a place for it in in everyone's mental health and there's just sometimes when we need more, right? And so now we're able to really support those members who've had a greater need or or severity um in the ways that we weren't able to before. And so I think for me like that's like the the huge unlock is again being able to help our members at every milestone throughout their mental health journey whether it's the highs or the lows or the everything in between. And so I think the the really the interesting things that have come out of that since are what's really exciting for me. Um so after we merged like um I had mentioned back in 2021 about a year later I was tasked with starting this new squad that was called the outcome squad. Um we're really

thinking focused on around like how do we tell a story um both to our consumers but also to our B2B partners around hey if you're providing these services across content and human delivered care what is the actual efficacy of that and what are the outcomes and so one of the ways that we actually are build is if we see member our members improving their their mental health and so one of the ways that we do that is we have built these surveys that we administer to our members in the app. you're probably familiar with like the PHQ9 or the GAD 7 or the PSS. Like ways that we evaluate a member's current levels of stress, anxiety, or depression. If you've ever, you know, received services from a therapist, um, you've probably answered some of these questions whether you realize it or not. And so, we'll ask those questions to members and as they're progressing, we'll ask them again. And then over time, those

different data sets allow us to track if someone's, you know, experiencing increased anxiety or they're actually that's waning over time. And that also lets us know, you know, based on how much the member is using the app, what are the types of patterns that we're seeing? So, if a member is coming in three times a week versus once a week versus every day and we see their score, what does that actually mean about the efficacy of our of our work? Um, and we also have done a lot with um other entity entities like universities and colleges to do actual like research reviews and studies of our work. So, there's a lot of actually papers around the efficacy of some of our especially our clinical programs. So I was, you know, responsible for figuring out like how do we do that at scale? How do we create like the right metrics? How do we create the right administration of these measurement tools um to actually show

that back to the member? Um knowing that like knowing how you're doing is actually a really important part of actually making progress, right? When you think about some of the other products like we built like at Quizlet and you know even you know being able to test yourself and seeing kind of where you're at so you know what you need to focus on next. Um but also products like Dualingo, right? Like knowing that you're actually getting better at a language and this is actually where you need to focus or where you're actually really already excelling at is a really important part of actually making progress is seeing that being able to find ways to show that and if you go into the app today you can see that in my progress and you can track your score over time for our B2B customers actually show them hey this percentage of your population is actually seeing a decrease in anxiety or depression and being able to again

really show the efficacy and the value of the product that they're paying for. Again, when you're thinking about a really crowded market, especially in the healthcare industry, the trend that we're seeing is moving away just from engagement metrics, which I think for me coming from like a growth background is really interesting of moving from engagement to outcome metrics. And that's those are really hard metrics to track. Um, but if you can do it, and I've always said this, you know, like since I've been at Headspace, if you can figure that out, you've won the game. um because it's tracking is really hard, but if you can actually show that the the value that you're providing is not just something that the members are engaging with, but is actually leading to meaningful improvements, you're you're going to win win win in the game.

Um and so yeah, I think for me that's been it's been a huge unlock both from a value perspective, but also in the way that we model out and think about how we do business as a product. Yeah. So many follow-ups I want to ask you, but I'll start with you mentioned when we worked together at Quizlet. Quizlet was in many ways a point solution, right? It had for many years been digital flashcards and other advanced study modes. And then we expanded into textbook solutions and now more and more AI powered learning modalities. So similarly, you've been at Headspace during this time where you've gone from a pure play digital meditation app to now offering all of these other services, coaching, therapy, psychiatry.

But that brings with it some some challenges and this is something I know almost every consumer subscription business that gets large enough to become a multi-product platform faces.

So how did you and your team or the company more broadly um navigate that transition from a single product company into more of a platform of different services? Yeah, I mean again I I think like you said it doesn't come without its challenges. I think we're we're still figuring some of those those components out in terms of like offering that at scale. And so, um, you know, even for some of our services, they're not available for everyone yet. But, you know, hopefully that's to come in the future. But I think it really started with, you know, placing bets in the right areas. And so, sometimes with some of our products and features will start B2B and then grow to DTOC as we're able to prove that out. Um, and sometimes it's vice versa and kind of figuring out where there's market opportunity and and growing and expanding from there. The way that we've really solved that is to start small, get a lot of feedback early

and often, and then continue to expand our offering over time and being really hyperfocused on getting it right for our members. Um, because again, every every feature, every modality that we add, that's expanding something that we're having to maintain, whether that's from like the product and engineering side all the way to the business and the back end and operations. So um you know it doesn't come without its challenges but I think we have a lot of really smart people um both who come from the healthcare background who have you know been in the business and have thought about how you scale operations of offering these types of services and then kind of blending that with all the awesome talent we have on the tech side that's thinking about how do you actually support that and build that type of product that meets to meet some of members and in ways that maybe brickandmortar therapy and psychiatry

hasn't been able to historically. Yeah, to me two key things you said there. One was starting small and just making sure as you're going to expand beyond your flagship product offering. You know, don't try to do too much too quickly. Start with an MVP or start with the smallest possible version of the service that you can test and validate. And then number two is make sure you're building the right products and features for the right customers. And so it sounds like therapy is an example of a service that you've now made available to everyone, but some of these other offerings like psychiatry for example, which um probably is at a higher price point. it has um more risks associated with certain medications and just just being really careful around who you're targeting with what products and services at what time to make sure that it's a good fit. One of the next topics

I wanted to jump into was Headspace's work with employers or Headspace for work. And so I know even before you acquired Ginger.io, um Headspace was already working with employers through its B2B business. Um but Ginger.io certainly unlocked additional opportunities to expand into care delivery for these employers. So, can you walk me through what it was like to expand this um service offering to businesses rather than individuals?

Yeah, great question. And I just wanted to comment on the last point you made which is around going slow and I think you know in a in a culture and especially in tech where we're you know it's championed to go fast. I think in a place like Headspace, especially when you're thinking about, you know, mental health care because we are healthcare, you have to go slower, right? Because there is a huge risk and a cost um if we go fast and we get it wrong, right?

Because we're not just talking about, you know, learning a language or, you know, doing something that maybe has less at stake, right? We're talking about someone's mental health. And so getting it right is so much more important. So I think for me another lesson was figuring out when it's when it's important to go fast or when it's okay to go fast and when it's actually really important for the member and the business that we go slower. Um yeah, I think to your your next point around um thinking about expanding our B2B business, that's also one where originally I was focused on the DTOC side of the house and when I was tasked with starting this new team, I actually moved over to the B2B side and a B2B book of business that we had or have at the time really focused around outcomes.

But I think for me, as we expanded, again, we had all these new offerings, we were able to now um situate or or storytell ourselves around this idea of becoming an EAP. um which again we weren't able to offer in the past when we were content only and I think that's really expanded our ability to not only scale but we also now are working with a lot of um healthcare providers such as like Kaiser, Sigma, Blue Cross and Blue Shield. we work with and partner with them in a way that we're able to kind of offload um and take on some of that and and and and again you've mentioned before like we have kind of this like pandemic around uh mental health and so in a world where you know Kaiser or another healthcare provider isn't able to kind of meet the need of their current member base we're able to take on some of that uh and again that allows us to scale in a really intelligent way um instead of trying to go after every

individual member we're now able to build awareness and acquire um a bigger book of business in a very short period of time by having these strategic partnerships. So, I think it's been really cool to to grow and um in that way. And then for us, you know, we're getting the member in when you know that that service is provided for them, but if they ever leave that company or transition, we're still able to have that relationship with the member and continue that on throughout.

And so, again, I think there's a lot of strategic benefit for us and having kind of focused on B2B. I would say more over the last couple of years now that we have this expanded offering. Mhm. Well, and one of the things you mentioned earlier that I want to go back to is brand. And as you said, Headspace because it was such an early app in the app store and because Andy Puome is sort of a mini celebrity and is just beloved by so many people as such a great voice.

you already had this really strong consumer brand, but I imagine that the transition from consumer to also supporting employers through your B2B business as well as the transition from pure play meditation to some of these higher touch service offerings really stretched how you needed to portray the Headspace brand. And I know that's probably more of a marketing challenge than a product challenge, but as a

product leader, how did you and your team think about, you know, how to thread that needle between continuing to provide a lightweight and delightful consumer brand, but then also having this sort of credibility to expand both into Headspace for work, but also into some of these more clinical use cases. Yeah, it's a great question. Um because I think in some cases when when we're working with these B2B partners, their um employees actually know the brand already. And so some of it is a lot of the word of mouth of like hey like what is this new offering that we have? Oh, I actually use Headspace in the past or you know I saw I use their content through our Netflix partnerships. Those are one of our key partnerships. And so I would say some of the time our our members that you know come to us through our B2B partnerships actually are aware of us and we have that brand lean on to.

But I think to your point that's not everyone. Um and I would say other times it's using and leveraging social credibility. Um so a lot of our messaging will say 3 minutes 10 days you know you'll see improvements in your mental health. Really leaning into the stories of our members sharing kind of what's worked for them. And we have enough data now that we can actually see like what is like the MVP experience to actually help someone feel that change.

Um, so for us it's really like how do we get a member to that aha as quickly as possible. So that moment of release, that moment of oh my gosh, I feel a little bit more clarity. I feel a little bit better. Really kind of bringing that to the top of the funnel. So when you download the app today, you'll actually get our blue skies at, you know, meditation. Um, and so a lot of times the proof is in the pudding from the beginning when you're like, "Oh, I feel better. I think this thing is going to work. I'm willing to invest my time and energy into exploring it more into figuring out how it works. Um we also do a lot of B2B webinars um for our partners where we talk about like how to best leverage Headspace, how to even create challenges around using Headspace every month and thinking about how you can incentivize some of our partners incentivize them for using um Headspace because again you think about it's

actually preventative care because if you're tending to your mind now and you have access to these resources now when you actually are in crisis or need them you already are set up for success and you have this like toolkit that you can rely on. And um so we we do a lot to really make sure that our B2B partners feel supported um in a way that they can support and turn their members to really understand the value of what they they we have to offer as a product. Mhm.

Yeah. Well, to me the key thing you said there is at the end of the day it's all humans, right? You could be an individual consumer or you can be an employee working at a very large company. But at the end of the day, you're a human with human problems. And Headspace is positioned to solve a number of those human problems, whether it's meditation, mindfulness, coaching, therapy, psychiatry. And so the key distinction in my mind when a consumer business transitions into B2B is there's just a higher bar in terms of credibility and security and possibly some administrative features, but ultimately you're still solving a lot of the same problems. And it sounds like Headspace by staying true to its core product vision and to its mission and values has been able to do that for employees in the same way that it was previously doing it for individual consumers. Exactly. Yeah. And I think I think that's also been a benefit for us

even for like testing or experimentation is we have these like two different audiences that now when we see like oh this is really working here like we can test it over with our consumers or maybe something is really resonating with our consumers let's test it with our B2B partners and see and and again there's some unique nuances that we have to build and develop around but you're totally right and that we're we're serving our goal is to serve humans and to you know help create more access to mental health services and so how we do that is a lot of times the same and and I think that just gives us a very unique opportunity to test with different markets. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It's almost like running an AB test on iOS and then if it works you port it over to Android or vice versa.

Similarly, you can test with your consumers and port it to B2B or or the other way around. Exactly. So, the next question I wanted to ask, I know there were some products and services that Ginger.io brought with it with the merger, but then there were some additional features that your team built to help support Headspace for work. And

so can you walk me through what already existed with Ginger.io when that merger was completed and then what were some of the early features that your team helped to build? It wasn't my team specifically that that built some of these um but was kind of under our engage umbrella but we have built out since some of tools like the guided um our guided clinical programs um which we're really excited about. Again, a lot of our content previously was focused around meditation and mindfulness. Um, and as we, you know, stop thought about, you know, kind of expanding out into coaching, therapy, and psychiatry, we really felt like there was kind of a gap in our content offering. And so, we have actually one of our internal PMs, she's also a clinical psychologist. And so, her and her team um, worked on building out, we have three programs now. We have our sleep program that actually we just got some really cool research around that

has actually benefits for folks with insomnia that has been validated. We also have our um anxiety program and then we also have a stress program as well. Um and so again those are kind of like more I would say there's like more depth. They're anywhere from I think 21 to 30 days. Um so they're again they're more of a commitment. um they're all clinically based and backed and so again enabled us to offer more of like a unique offering and again also seeing it kind of in as like a on-ramp or an upsell potentially in the future into some of our other uh human delivered offerings. Another one that you might have seen as well is EB, our human um AI companion that we've been playing around with more recently. Um and and then more recently I would say my team is really focused on um what what you probably know as the today tab which is like the home page. That's that's my area of ownership and um my team and I are

really thinking about how do we now build the future of the today tab that really integrates everything that is headsp space both the content and mindfulness and meditation that we've known for historically with now all these different modalities that we have and thinking about how we create a structured journey for you based on all the inputs that you tell us. So are you here to work on anxiety? Are you trying to improve your sleep? are you fairing with depression and want to navigate that together and thinking about how we create a new experience for the today tab that really integrates that and creates whether that's like a routine whether that shows you like the progress that you're making again or whether that's just like making the next right recommendation for you based on what you're doing and and how you're varying through that all. Um so those are I would say some of the the key things

that come to mind when when thinking about kind of where where we're going and and and the future of Headspace as a product. Yeah. Yeah, and I'm so glad that you brought up the today tab because as you said, that's sort of the face of Headspace, right? It's the front door for users who open the app every day. And I imagine that the challenge of optimizing a space like that gets harder and harder the more complex your product gets and the more different customers you're serving. So, how has your team

thought about the changing needs of the Today DAB in a world where you're serving these different customers with all these different service offerings? And then I guess a a second part of the question is to me AI unlocks a lot of opportunities but one of them is hyperpersonalization right being able to much more easily personalize the product experience for each individual user and so has AI made it any easier to make this um today tab a little bit more dynamic for now EB uh is kind of operating as its own component and so EB is kind of an empathetic personification if you will of headspace uh and that you're able to have a conversation with EB. EB is able to guide you through different, you know, questions and and helping you articulate how you're feeling and and being more present and aware with your emotions, uh, in addition to recommending content. Um, but so again, it's a little bit more, I

would say, enclosed today. In the future, you might see that change and be a lot more integrated into places like the Today, which we're really excited and bullish about. And I think, you know, again, this is one of the areas that we want to get right. And so from the beginning, another one of our product managers who's actually also a clinical psychologist helped us develop the foundations of what EB is today and what you see in the product. We really wanted to take our time and and again getting this right and both how we think about the ethics around using AI in the mental health care space, which I know there's a lot of varying opinions and perspectives around um but also building our product in a way that gave you optionality to opt out. um so that you can still enjoy and experience the value of a hyperpersonalized product without needing to use AI if if that's not something that you're interested in

today or you know in the future. EB is definitely going to play a role in in probably being you know our navigator through our product. Um, but as we think about the today, you know, again, making it modular enough that they can or cannot be present and a part of that experience. And, you know, I would say some of the other things that we're thinking about to your point is, you know, creating our product or that today tab in a way that really mirrors everyday use. So, when you're thinking about building a routine, how do we support that routine? If we know that you're always engaging with certain content or if we're you're currently engaged in care, how do we bring that to the top? How do we surface that? how do we make, you know, reduce the number of clicks or the friction to actually get you to where you want to go? And then how do we also help you have or feel this like sense of progress? Um, so

again, I think that's a really key part of this is knowing that there's ups and downs with the mental health and being able to mirror that back and also to, you know, pull out different insights that will help you better understand where you're at, where your mental health might be um, and kind of pair that back. And then I would say the third piece is around like how do we provide this like sense of guidance? I think people come to Headspace because they see us as an expert. So, how do we actually bring that front and center?

And so, again, if we start as we start to build that relationship with you and and grow with you, how do we actually do a better job of recommending you the right next thing to do? Whether that's, hey, it looks like your score went down from, you know, over the past couple of months, maybe now is the right time to explore that. Or if that's not something, maybe EB is like a better light touch way to start to explore and to navigate and to think about your feelings. and having that optionality, having that personalization that really kind of knows you, knows your preferences, um, but also again continues to, you know, position us as an expert. Um, so there's that reliability and that trust that I think people have come to know, um, when they use a Headspace as a brand. Got it. That makes a lot of sense. So what I think I heard there was the today dab as it stands currently is already personalized

to individual users whether or not you're choosing to engage with AI choosing to engage with EB and right now EB is um sort of this nent feature within headspace that is a little bit more um sequestered to certain parts of the experience and over time it will probably become more seamlessly embedded in the entire product experience but it's sort of a work in progress. So let's talk a little bit more about EB. I

guess I'm curious when did Headspace initially decide to start investing in AI and why? Yeah, it's a great question. So, I would say you know this has been I mean EB has been a brainchild for at least two 3 years now. Um I think it's always been something that we have wanted to invest in at least since I've been at Headspace. I think again it was figuring out what was the right role that Headspace would play in this. um knowing that you know there is a lot of differing p perspectives and opinions on you know should we use AI if so how should we be using AI and um so I think we were a little slower to start because they wanted to be again really intentional with that um as a beloved brand and a really trusted and reputable brand but about a year and a half ago or so um like I said we had our one of our internal PMs who was you know who is a clinical psychologist um had started to kind of put together um and codify our

own principles around using AI at Headspace. Um, and I think that was really what kind of gave gave us momentum because we felt like we had this like shared alignment and shared vision and values around what what that would look like for us. Um, and even in its name, it comes from like Eb and flow of emotions. Um, so again, everything that we've built around EB is super intentional. even down to thinking about how do we use then AI within our product to detect if there's any risk of like suicidality or any like types of harm and even when you know we've had a few reporters who have been reporting on the different uses of AI in mental healthcare like they've always said how distinctly different ours feels because of a lot of the safeguards and a lot of the protections that we've put in place we do think there's a limit to what AI should be used for and I think again that's why EB today is a little bit more

sequestered in the future you might see it more integrated But I think for us again, you know, a little slower because we want we want to move with intentionality. Um, and the feedback that we've gotten from the members who use EB has just been incredible. Um, about how it's just given them a sense of, you know, a sense of like being able to express themselves without the fear of maybe, you know, cuz again, there's still a lot of stigma around receiving, you know, services such as therapy and psychiatry. And so for folks that are maybe unsure about working with another person, this is like a great for like having some some some entity, I would say not a human, but like some entity respond to you, ask you questions, um, and be able to kind of help you navigate your your big feelings, um, without feeling maybe like the pressure you might have felt of doing that with another human. Um, and so I I think it's been really cool to

see how EB has expanded and grown. And like I said, a lot to come. But I think even so far, you know, what we've built, I think I'm so proud of it because I think it's so it's such an intentional use in case study and how to use AI in a very intentional and safe way in a world where I feel like there's there's a lot of uh maybe misuse of AI out there today. Oh, certainly. Yeah. And I'm, you know, good for you and good for Headspace for being so um ethically driven when it comes to how you approach solving these problems with AI because I feel like lots of industries are wrestling with that question right now, but in a space like mental health and wellness in particular, it's just so important to make sure you're getting it right and protecting your customers. One other question this brings up, so there have been a proliferation over the last year or two of these AI avatars. So you've got more generic avatars like

Character.ai AI or Replica. And then you have some companies that have emerged recently like Finch or Tolen, which is actually one of my clients that um is sort of a AI companion that is specifically focused in some cases on providing mental and emotional support or helping you work through difficult challenges in everyday life. And so how

do you see EB positioned relative to some of those other AI companions that maybe aren't as focused on meditation, mindfulness or mental health and wellness? For me, the way that I I see the future of EB is it being a navigator. Again, I think you know from the beginning um our our shared belief is that EB is not a replacement for therapists or psychiatrists. Like those are licensed and regulated fields. There are, you know, bounds with which EB will play. But I think the the best opportunity that EB can serve us and and as a business and our members is being able to intelligently not help them navigate through what mental health care is, right? So I think for for me the differentiator with EB is really that we already have a book of services that we offer and I see the future of EB uh as a navigator and really helping you to be able to navigate what I think traditionally could be a really complex

and difficult industry, right? We're kind of like a one-stop shop. And so maybe, you know, you come into the app, you just want to explore your feelings and EB is helping you with that. And then over time, EB might start to say, "Hey, it really feels like this might be something, you know, worth exploring. Would you be interested in talking to a therapist or talking to a coach?" Uh, and then EB can help you understand what your different options are based on maybe you do have insurance, maybe you don't have insurance. Um, and then and again continuing to do that in a humanized way. no like forms. There's no telephone number to call. There's just this really cute and and empathetic uh AI that's able to, you know, really help you navigate something that can already feel, you know, trying, but then when you're navigating a crisis can feel, you know, compounding. Um, and so I think for me being able to have that all

interconnected as one service is is a huge differentiator, right? Versus just having kind of like a a oneoff sequestered AI, you know, companion that then is maybe referring you out to another app or another service where for us it's all inhouse and then being able to kind of connect those dots throughout your journey. Maybe you're already seeing a therapist and working with one of our providers. being able to follow up with you after sess sessions or in between sessions and really create that continuity um to help you, you know, throughout this journey. Again, knowing that for us, the the most important thing that we're storytelling around is like mental health is a lifelong journey. Um and so being able to feel like you have a companion and a navigator in that I think again is just going to be really compelling to consumers. we already see it and I think we'll just continue to be even more

compelling as we add more value propositions to what EB can uh can do to support them. Yeah, that makes so much sense to me and I hadn't really thought about it through that lens, but you have a lot of these other AI companions that it's pretty impressive how much they can do even with very little context in terms of just having conversations, better understand your emotional state and maybe being able to help in the way that a good friend or family member could help. But because you already have the whole ecosystem of product offerings around meditation, mindfulness, coaching, therapy, psychiatry, it just gives you a lot more vectors of where you can send your customer in order to get the help they need. And you have a lot more context from all of your other services you offer on who that customer is and and what they might need at any given time. Exactly. So, last question before we get our lightning round here.

Where do you think headsp space goes over the next two to three years as AI continues to evolve? Yeah, I mean again I really see EB um as a key like key tool when we think about navigating um I think again as we add more and more services. One of the things that can be a result of that is it it can sometimes be hard to find the thing that you need or even know what you need, right? Because now there's so many things where it's like, okay, do I do therapy? Is coaching right? Like what is coaching even? And you know I I think being able to have that that tool as a navigator is going to be really key for us. Our belief is that you know AI is not going to become a replacement for therapy or psychiatry. But we we do believe that for those who have a lower level of acuity or need that you know who just you know need that person to hold them accountable or you know need someone to help them process feelings or emotions.

um that there is a huge opportunity for that, right? Especially as you graduate therapy, which you know, should be the goal, right? You you know, ideally we're not in, you know, the therapy or any modality forever. Um and that, you know, we're able to provide some sense of stability throughout that afterwards. So, it's not just, you know, you graduated therapy and good luck and in and practicing, you know, all that you learned in life, but actually here is someone that can help you practice that every day. Um, in a really light touch way that maybe is a lot more accessible and affordable than therapy is. Um, and so I think there's just so much more to explore and and how we can support um, unique use cases and even like, you know, for folks who would maybe go to group therapy, like what would that look like if EB was the other person in in this like group group session, if you will, that was, you know, providing that

accountability that was able to check in with you to see how that went or even give you homework to practice to again really make sure that you're not just learning those skills, but you're able to take those skills and use them in your everyday life. So, I think there's, you know, a ton of different ways and use cases that we'll use EB. um and even outside EB, I'm really excited for how we're going to be able to again create that really um continuous amount of support throughout one's mental health journey and then even create more opportunity for autonomy as well.

Knowing that you have all this in your toolkit and and and really being able to make sure that you know we're not just providing services, but we're creating opportunities for people to learn and then ideally share that out and and that's how we you know meet our goal of creating a happier world. um one one person at a time. Yeah, I love that. And two things you said there that particularly excite me. One is it's sort of obvious how Headspace could take somebody who's into mindfulness and meditation and then if they, you know, hit a difficult point in their life or they're going through a crisis, sort of get them into more advanced services like therapy or psychiatry, but it works the other way around, too. And so as somebody graduates therapy, to use your words, getting them into a regular meditation and mindfulness practice so that maybe they're able to avoid the next crisis in their life or able to

weather it themselves more easily. And then the second thing you said, and I'm seeing this across so many industries now, is the potential of AI not to replace human professionals, but to supplement what a human can offer at a much higher price point with a lower price offering that can be automated in many cases. And so that just fills in a gap in the market where not everybody can afford $200 per hour to go see a therapist. And so if you don't need a professional therapist at a particular point in your life, then EP can sort of fill that gap. Yeah. Well, great. Let's

get to our lightning round. So I'm going to ask you a series of rapid fire questions and you can just give me quick one or two sentence responses. First one is, what is the best part about working at Headspace and what's one thing you'd change? I think my favorite part uh about working at Headspace is knowing that what I do matters. I we have an NPS Slack channel and I read that religiously every day and to see how we're impacting like the the big moments, the little moments and every moment in between for people and really helping them show up as their best self through the work that we do is just incredible for me. And uh and knowing what I set out to achieve four years ago and like actually seeing that has been incredible. Um, I think the thing that I would change is, you know, when you're around for a long time as a product, um, sometimes, uh, I think we we get into the mindset of we've always done it this

way and, um, and and I'm really excited. We just got a new CEO in, Tom Picket, and he's really challenging us to continue to operate like a startup. We're still small in size and, uh, and I think that we're still have so much more to do. And so I'm really excited for us to um get back into this like let's let's break things, let's move faster and and in in the areas that it feels safe to do so and right by our members so that we can really learn and continue to iterate on our product. Yeah, I love that. And the two almost feel related. I I you're somebody who having worked with you at Quizlet, you've always been so good about being user centric and understanding customer feedback. And in a lot of ways, that's the best defense against falling into the trap of just doing things the way we've always done them because you listen to your customers and their needs evolve and so you can evolve with them. Next question

is, what does your meditation and mindfulness practice look like? I know you're somebody who meditates and so what does that look like for you and how has it evolved over time? Like I said, when I was going through my own kind of mental health crisis back in 2020, I started using Headspace. And so, I would do the everyday Headspace. I would do um there's like a breathing exercise and there's also something called the wake up. And I would go through those three activities every day. That's still something that I do, but I have since also started using more of our Sleepcast content. I fall asleep to it every night. The Cat Laundryette, it's like the one It's funny like when I talk to other people, they have like their one favorite and they use it every night.

Um, I just love feeling like I'm wrapped up in a blanket and on spin cycle. I don't know what it is, but it does it for me. Um, and I think the other thing that has really been interesting for me is also through using Headspace is thinking about other ways um to really, you know, increase my my mindfulness practice. Um, so I actually just completed a 2-year beekeeping apprenticeship program. Oh, cool. Um, yeah. And I will go out and I'll see my bees every Sunday. And that's been a huge like part of my new practice is thinking about um like nature as a practice and just like being around the bees and being in the sunshine and um just you know getting to be really present and mindful of them as like these little creatures um has been a really new way to practice mindfulness.

I love that. It's amazing how getting outside just seems to make everything a little better and easier for me. It's getting up into the mountains since I live in Colorado. But that's so cool that you're doing the beekeeping. I didn't know that. Okay, third question. What's your favorite consumer or proumer subscription app, and why do you love it so much? I This is going to sound random, but YouTube Music, um I it's one of the few apps that I still continue to pay for. Um and it's just because it's so versatile. You can both like I think they have one of the best recommendation algorithms. I mean, obviously Google, but also the ability to toggle back and forth between audio and video. To be able to throw it and cast it on my TV to someone's speaker and then with that obviously not having any ads, uh, is is incredible. And I think they do it all at a really good price point. Um, and so for me, that's

still one of the the few apps that I pay for to this day. Yeah, that's a great one. And I've heard YouTube come up multiple times, so you're certainly not alone. All right, last couple here. Meditation is a crowded category, as are many of the top consumer subscription categories. So, as a PM working on new products and services within that category, what's your advice for PMs in other categories like that that are trying to help their companies break out as you've done with some of these new service offerings?

Yeah, I mean, I think um for me and and this has been my ethos since coming into product management, I've in a lot of cases been, you know, the only one in the room. Um, and so I think for me it's always thinking about the unmet need because I have that. I think that's also been my superpower because I'm I'm typically thinking or seeing things from a different angle or lens. And so I think always thinking about what is the unmet need, what is the, you know, the unmet opportunity and really leaning into what your members are saying and what they're not saying. And I think there's a time to be incremental and I think there's a time to just run with something and and getting feedback.

There's nothing like just running with an experiment and letting the data tell you what you need to hear. I think, you know, if I could go back earlier in my career, I think I spent a lot of time getting into some, you know, analysis like overload of like, you know, do we do this, do we not do this? Um, and sometimes I think you just have to run it and try it and see what sticks and what doesn't. And so yeah, so I think for me it's, you know, what is that unmet need or opportunity and um talking to people about your product, using the product yourself, and then just thinking about, you know, instead of trying to figure out the right solution, you know, recognizing you're probably going to get it wrong, but just trying to get figure out how you can get data and get that as quickly as possible to then kind of make your next decision and and continuing that process until you feel like you've

gotten into a good rhythm. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know if this resonates, but for me, as I've sort of progressed through my product career, there's always this tension between being instinct or vision driven and being data driven. And I think the best product leaders find a way to balance the art and the science of product management. And to make it a little bit more specific, I find that the who and the why are often a little bit more art, right? It's instinctual.

It's talking to customers. It's pattern recognition. But then the what and the how could be very iterative and data driven. And so it sounds like that's how you've approached things at Headspace. It's what's the unmet need. That's very much, you know, a why is this a need and for whom, but then the what and the how is something you can iterate to through AB tests and feature test. Exactly. Exactly. And again, I think going back to it, there's times where it's really important to get it right. Uh like in our space where we're actually providing healthcare, but then there's pieces of that that we don't have to get right right away. And so, how do we find the balance of that? um knowing that, you know, every little change is is hopefully moving us in the right direction over time. Yep. I love that.

Well, this is the last lightning round question, and maybe it shouldn't be a lightning round question because it's it's a big one, but in a couple sentences ultimately, do you think AI is going to positively or negatively impact human happiness? Because I could see it going in either direction. Yeah, I think it's interesting. I think it makes me question like what what even is happiness? Yeah. Um, and I I I think to be honest like happiness is so subjective that I and I think is so personal that I don't think one thing is going to like have like a outsized negative or positive impact on us. And and I think ultimately it depends on you know how we design AI and what we're actually doing with it. But I I think for me in the way that I use AI, which is, you know, again, mostly for like mundane tasks and um kind of like outsourcing requests and like small smaller use cases, I think for me, no,

it's it's not going to have an outside positive impact, but the things that I'm able to do with that time that I'm taking back will. So, being able to go to that dinner that my friend is hosting or be able to go outside and be with my bees because I'm able to take some of that time back. Like, that is going to be the thing that has the outsized positive impact is the time that I'm able to take back um and to be able to do the things that bring me joy that then help me come back to work and feel fueled to do the things that I do every day. Yeah, I love that answer and it's one I haven't heard before because I am a big believer that AI and technology more broadly is not a substitute for the things that make humans happy, right?

human relationships, being outside, a sense of purpose. But I hadn't thought of it that way. Like, if you're able to displace a lot of the menial day-to-day labor that goes into being a human being, it can create more space for those those meaningful relationships or those time with your bees or being outside. So, I love that answer. I think that's a great note to end on. Any parting words for the audience um before we wrap up here, Corey? Yeah, I I would just say find what brings you purpose. um make that purpose outside of work and then figure out how you can bring a little bit of that purpose back into the work that you do. Well said. Well, thanks for coming on, Corey. It's been a pleasure. Awesome. And thanks, Phil.